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yves kerlo
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 [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)

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AuteurMessage
Quod et probat

Quod et probat


Nombre de messages : 27
Age : 76
Localisation : South Europe
Date d'inscription : 30/10/2019

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Icon_minitimeMer 16 Mar - 18:27

Why make it simple when complicated works much better.
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carlovitch1




Nombre de messages : 832
Localisation : Pays Catalan
Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

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MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Icon_minitimeJeu 17 Mar - 16:39

Thanks for your reply, Cara. My main concern was about the fact that the return wave will at one moment hit the zone where the 2 pipes become one and then this would generate some flow perturbation or some kind of counter wave in the flow, this is what I call potential loss.

I understand that you certainly found the best shape for this zone through you numerous trials.
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carlovitch1




Nombre de messages : 832
Localisation : Pays Catalan
Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

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MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Icon_minitimeVen 18 Mar - 7:07

While we are at it, maybe you would draw a simple sketch of the shape you adopted for this zone, and also tell us which pipe volume was giving the best results.
For the lengths of the different parts, a simple speed wave calculation will give us the results but I'm curious to know about the diameters: did you consider them as if it was a 350cc single ?
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Quod et probat

Quod et probat


Nombre de messages : 27
Age : 76
Localisation : South Europe
Date d'inscription : 30/10/2019

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MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Icon_minitimeVen 18 Mar - 21:26

carlovitch1 a écrit:
While we are at it, maybe you would draw a simple sketch of the shape you adopted for this zone, and also tell us which pipe volume was giving the best results.
For the lengths of the different parts, a simple speed wave calculation will give us the results but I'm curious to know about the diameters: did you consider them as if it was a 350cc single ?

While we are at it ?
What should I be part of already?
I only wanted to satisfy your curiosity benevolently, as you put it, somewhat from my fund of memories.
Since your curiosity has developed into a thirst for knowledge, I would like to gently point out to you once again that this took place over forty (>40) years ago, about which you now want sketches and data from me after all.
I have told you in no uncertain terms that -no more documents-are available and that I will pass on everything I still know.
Nevertheless, there will now be a hearing of evidence, which I am supposed to make more precise from my memories with sketches and data on– form factor, —volume and calculations.
I repeat myself!
I have stated several times that it is—unserious—to pass on measurements (data) without detailed documentation. That is why I will not make any sketches!
I am glad that you are curious about the diameters, I believe you promptly already because of the way you formulate your questions in this regard....... It appears that you have a—teaching—profession, just a feeling from me.
To clarify, 2 strokes was not my bread and butter profession, but I spent a lot of time with 2 strokes. During this period, I made well over 100 exhaust systems for various 2-stroke engines and also some for the -360° parallel twin. At that time, believe me, I had a large archive with all the necessary records needed for a 2-stroke exhaust. The emphasis is on--had--!
Therefore, it is difficult for me -today- to provide you with exactly what you want from memory to satisfy your curiosity.
No, I did not use a 350 single cylinder for this project.
Because the differences are considerable.
Two carburettors, -larger intake volume, -two enlarged crankcases, -larger overflow volume, -two-piston areas, -two combustion chambers with a greater combustion speed, -and.... I think you already know all that.
As for the calculations, that won't be a problem for you nowadays with all these electronic possibilities.
And if you now think I'm just attempting to avoid proving my point, well, if that's what you think that's fine with me.
I am at an age where I no longer need to be proven and confirm myself.
Nevertheless, I will gladly answer questions about the best of my knowledge.
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carlovitch1




Nombre de messages : 832
Localisation : Pays Catalan
Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Icon_minitimeSam 19 Mar - 8:20

Cara, maybe my wording was not the best. In case you felt offended, I'm sorry about it, it was absolutely not intentional (English is not my native language). I have no judgement on anybody here, except admiration for achievements of many people, which you are in. So please make sure my questions are only based on technical curiosity.

I'm not asking at all for the exact quotes of your special pipe. Only a basic handwritten sketch of the important shape tricks to make me understand (as I'm more of a visual guy) what you finally ended as best solution.

I'm only an amateur bike restorator and engine builder, mostly focused on MX/Offroad. The single pipe solution is interesting for me as I eventually plan on converting an old road purpose 125 twin into a kind of scrambler bike.
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Quod et probat

Quod et probat


Nombre de messages : 27
Age : 76
Localisation : South Europe
Date d'inscription : 30/10/2019

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Icon_minitimeDim 20 Mar - 17:13

carlovitch1 a écrit:
Cara, maybe my wording was not the best. In case you felt offended, I'm sorry about it, it was absolutely not intentional (English is not my native language). I have no judgement on anybody here, except admiration for achievements of many people, which you are in. So please make sure my questions are only based on technical curiosity.

I'm not asking at all for the exact quotes of your special pipe. Only a basic handwritten sketch of the important shape tricks to make me understand (as I'm more of a visual guy) what you finally ended as best solution.

I'm only an amateur bike restorator and engine builder, mostly focused on MX/Offroad. The single pipe solution is interesting for me as I eventually plan on converting an old road purpose 125 twin into a kind of scrambler bike.  

It's amazing how you don't let up.
I'm not offended at all, I just gave you my conclusion. You want me to make a sketch for you from the thought of an exhaust design I used -over 40(forty)* years ago!?
You ask for design features, for diameter sizes....
Z. B...
-- which pipe volume gave the best results--.
-- For the lengths of the various parts, a simple velocity wave calculation will give us the results, but I am curious about the diameters--.
-- sketch of the main moulding tricks --.

I had made well over—HUNDRED – exhaust systems for various 2 strokes—and now you think that after so many years*.
Explicitly remember this exhaust system so precisely as to sketch for you a certain design feature. I do not know of a 2 in 1 system for such a small engine unit. Since you will need an engine characteristic for your project that I never aimed for, and therefore my experience with a 350 Twin would not help you much. Furthermore, I don't know your engine concept. I could make some more arguments for and against. But these would not be useful to you.
The one thing I can still offer from my memories.
The joining of the slightly conical pipes should only be done within the—calculated manifold length—and that with a gentle curve to each other. The inside of the manifold tubes at the joint should converge—not razor sharp and pointed—but with a sufficient radius in the middle. The transition to the first short diffuser should also start with a radius and then with a larger opening angle to the next section. If you design motors, you will certainly have a spatial mind and understand these simple indications, without various sketches.
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carlovitch1




Nombre de messages : 832
Localisation : Pays Catalan
Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

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MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Icon_minitimeDim 20 Mar - 19:34

OK, thanks for your reply Cara.
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Architito2002




Nombre de messages : 1
Age : 47
Localisation : Torino, Italia
Date d'inscription : 28/12/2021

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Empty
MessageSujet: Squish parallelo   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Icon_minitimeLun 23 Mai - 11:19

Frits Overmars a écrit:
pojoran a écrit:
Dear Frits.
Would you please advise about 2T cylinder head or FOS cylinder head design.
1) what 's effect to head design in case different racing fuel unlead & lead fuel.  
   (such as Burn perior, Head Volume, Squize area or etc..)
2) If we change fuel from AV gas(Octance100) or unlead racing fuel to VP racing Q16 (Octance116),
   basically i can increase compression ratio correct, if you have any advise please
Thank you for your advice.
Dear Pojoran, if you wish to use leaded fuel, you are on your own. I haven't concerned myself with leaded fuel in decades, and I am not going to.

Apart from this, any combustion head shape, irrespective of its volume, should promote the highest possible burn rate. That way you will only need a small amount of ignition advance, which will limit the undesirable pressure rise acting on the piston before Top Dead Center. Furthermore, shortening the burn duration will limit heat loss to the surrounding metal.

Squish is the most effective way of promoting a fast burn rate. Make the squish area parallel to the piston crown and make the squish gap as narrow as possible. If the crankshaft is of good quality, you can use a squish gap of 1% of the stroke.

Different fuels will permit different compression ratios, but contrary to four-stroke practice, two-strokes do not need a high compression ratio for power, so I do not recommend to blindly use the highest ratio that the fuel will permit.


Good morning everyone,
I'm Potito and I'm passionate about two strokes.
Luckily I came across this forum full of ideas based on the great experience of you all.
Wandering on the internet I found a guy who talked about squish and I found an interesting idea about it, I would like to share it with you and know what you think. In practice, to have an effective parallel squish this maintains, and I agree, that the two areas of the vertical circular rings, external and internal of the squish crown, must be equal in order not to have the flow contraction. I think it makes sense unless you want to increase the speed on the narrowest ring to increase the turbulence. What do you think. Thanks
(Forgive me but I translate with the help of google)
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars


Nombre de messages : 2489
Age : 73
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

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MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Icon_minitimeJeu 2 Juin - 19:48

It's friday june 3 in Thailand Wink
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carlovitch1




Nombre de messages : 832
Localisation : Pays Catalan
Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Empty
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[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 12 Empty
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[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)
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 Sujets similaires
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» [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 4)
» [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)
» [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 4)
» [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked)
» [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)

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