| [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) | |
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+66Ed offen 88 CatSeven kai Thomsen Arcigno Frank S. Oliver Oettel chiccopeso BlackD3vil atte roskam Panas Kato74 I.T-Racing cassandre crigar walms dga vorlis SaltRacer jack177071 Architito2002 yeahhim Howard Gifford 2strokeman remix31 Apriliabarth Tim Ey pojoran Institute of TwoStrokes Eric_91 jfn2 melvyn trevor JPG Toop alain combemale Charles Kaneb carlovitch1 JanBros Frits Overmars MINGRET01 EDOUARD Jean Maurice Specken samy laranjateam polcat88 motori49 Quod et probat Elmi bentou LeonardoMRF2 MANETON RAW Vannik desmofr16 Döllinger fullgazlolo Emmanuel Laurentz SLT Dan42 Adco Marc CARBONX2 porttiming124 fpayart Jan Thiel peter1962 70 participants |
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Marc Admin
Nombre de messages : 28161 Age : 66 Localisation : Villiers sur Marne (94) Date d'inscription : 27/05/2008
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 8:50 | |
| Sorry to disturb you, I just found that in one of my hard drive... [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image]_________________ Un p'tit clik vaut mieux qu'une grande claque; c'est Harry qui l'a dit! [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image][Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] |
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Adco
Nombre de messages : 6453 Localisation : Limoges Date d'inscription : 19/02/2016
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 9:51 | |
| J’y vois un 2tps avec la boîte sous le moteur,une valve rotative à l’échappement,allumage en bout de vilo. Y-a de la place pour des clapets ?ou un disque ? |
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Dan42
Nombre de messages : 8907 Localisation : Margerie-Chantagret 42 Date d'inscription : 06/04/2014
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 10:11 | |
| Pour moi c'est un disque AR pas de doute. Dan |
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JanBros
Nombre de messages : 362 Localisation : Belgique Date d'inscription : 05/12/2011
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 12:35 | |
| - Adco a écrit:
- J’y vois un 2tps avec la boîte sous le moteur,une valve rotative à l’échappement,allumage en bout de vilo. Y-a de la place pour des clapets ?ou un disque ?
je vois le moteur d'un RSA |
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SLT
Nombre de messages : 176 Localisation : Bourgogne, France Date d'inscription : 07/06/2014
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 13:40 | |
| belle photo.... |
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CARBONX2
Nombre de messages : 6 Localisation : South Africa Date d'inscription : 17/04/2020
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 16:17 | |
| Frits I have spent most of the day trying all kinds of angles on the ports(I used modelling clay) and have settled on the best combination(and turns out to be the simplest): 1. Curved the inner duct wall at the port floor, this made a big difference on axial flow and symmetry. As it was originally, it had about 3mm of almost flat and then started the curve from about an 80 angle. 2. Re-angled the A-Ports at 25 degrees axial, this helps to push the flow down onto the piston from the middle of the piston to the boost port and the flow became more symmetrical there too.
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Adco
Nombre de messages : 6453 Localisation : Limoges Date d'inscription : 19/02/2016
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 18:16 | |
| - JanBros a écrit:
- Adco a écrit:
- J’y vois un 2tps avec la boîte sous le moteur,une valve rotative à l’échappement,allumage en bout de vilo. Y-a de la place pour des clapets ?ou un disque ?
je vois le moteur d'un RSA
Et bien voilà! Je me coucherai moins bête ce soir. Je lis ce sujet par curiosité technique depuis que je suis sur ce forum.....et je n’ai jamais vu la moindre photo du moteur en question ! |
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Frits Overmars
Nombre de messages : 2637 Age : 76 Localisation : Raalte, Holland Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 20:16 | |
| - Adco a écrit:
- Et bien voilà! Je me coucherai moins bête ce soir. Je lis ce sujet par curiosité technique depuis que je suis sur ce forum.....et je n’ai jamais vu la moindre photo du moteur en question !
Adco, your comment initially surprised me, but when I checked it, I noticed that indeed there are not that many pictures of the RSA125 here. I consider it my duty to ensure that all Pit-Lane forum members can enjoy a carefree night's sleep; maybe this will help. [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image]
Dernière édition par Frits Overmars le Ven 1 Mai - 20:43, édité 4 fois |
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Frits Overmars
Nombre de messages : 2637 Age : 76 Localisation : Raalte, Holland Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 20:22 | |
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Emmanuel Laurentz
Nombre de messages : 5085 Age : 65 Localisation : PACA Date d'inscription : 07/12/2009
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 20:55 | |
| Merci Frits ça c'est beau ! |
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Adco
Nombre de messages : 6453 Localisation : Limoges Date d'inscription : 19/02/2016
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 21:13 | |
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Marc Admin
Nombre de messages : 28161 Age : 66 Localisation : Villiers sur Marne (94) Date d'inscription : 27/05/2008
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 22:06 | |
| _________________ Un p'tit clik vaut mieux qu'une grande claque; c'est Harry qui l'a dit! [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image][Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] |
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fullgazlolo
Nombre de messages : 1832 Localisation : GE-CH Date d'inscription : 04/01/2016
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Ven 1 Mai - 22:34 | |
| 2 choses m'interpellent: - le diagramme du distributeur rotatif! - la qualité visuelle des fonderies! Bref, sacré moteur! |
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Frits Overmars
Nombre de messages : 2637 Age : 76 Localisation : Raalte, Holland Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 0:03 | |
| - fullgazlolo a écrit:
- 2 choses m'interpellent:
- le diagramme du distributeur rotatif! - la qualité visuelle des fonderies! Bref, sacré moteur! Lolo, the castings look so nice for a very simple reason: they were not cast. Only the cylinder and the coolant pump housing were cast; all other alloy engine parts were milled from solid. The pictures below show the very first milled prototype, when the intention still was to use an electric coolant pump. But because the capacity of the then available electric pumps was nowhere near large enough, a mechanical pump was finally fitted. That is the reason this pump looks like an afterthought. Whenever an RSA engine was opened, paparazzi were lurking with their cameras. Sometimes the mechanics fitted an inlet disc with a ridiculous timing, after which they 'forgot' to cover the engine. The real RSA inlet disc began to open 142.5° before TDC and closed 88° after TDC. [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image]
Dernière édition par Frits Overmars le Sam 2 Mai - 14:43, édité 1 fois |
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SLT
Nombre de messages : 176 Localisation : Bourgogne, France Date d'inscription : 07/06/2014
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 7:03 | |
| Thanks Frits ! |
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Döllinger
Nombre de messages : 105 Localisation : Biblis Date d'inscription : 14/01/2017
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 7:14 | |
| Thank you Frits for the pictures. Can you explain how exacetely the disc rotor and the balancing shaft are driven ? Best regards, Bernd |
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SLT
Nombre de messages : 176 Localisation : Bourgogne, France Date d'inscription : 07/06/2014
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 8:05 | |
| Frits, I have also saw the inlet disc diagram ; what do you think about 152-88° ? Do you think -considering rotation speed- it would be working without disc !! ? (my father, Yves Le Toumelin, told me an anecdote about MZ 125 1960's Kaaden Degner without disc : they forgot it... motor was very difficult to start but working normaly after...) About your RSA crankcase photo, the cooling system around crankshaft case is it independant and separate, of the main cooling systeme, with radiator and water pomp separate from cylinder cooling circuit ? Stéphane Le Toumelin |
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Adco
Nombre de messages : 6453 Localisation : Limoges Date d'inscription : 19/02/2016
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 8:09 | |
| what is the use of the little alloy tube behind the primary case ? |
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fullgazlolo
Nombre de messages : 1832 Localisation : GE-CH Date d'inscription : 04/01/2016
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 9:05 | |
| Thank you for the timing explanation! For the distributor, I had heard of things like that in kart ... crowns with a number of teeth engraved different from the number machined! It remains a beautiful object, anyway! |
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Frits Overmars
Nombre de messages : 2637 Age : 76 Localisation : Raalte, Holland Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 14:57 | |
| - Döllinger a écrit:
- Thank you Frits for the pictures. Can you explain how exacetely the disc rotor and the balancing shaft are driven ?
The balance shaft is driven directly from the crankshaft, as usual, via a couple of gears at the right-hand side of the engine. The left-hand side of the balance shaft drives the shaft for the inlet disc via a set of bevel gears. [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image] |
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desmofr16
Nombre de messages : 432 Age : 66 Localisation : 16 LA ROCHEFOUCAULD Date d'inscription : 23/11/2013
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 15:16 | |
| Hi, how this system is "oiled" ? by oil of gearbox, without pressure ? |
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Frits Overmars
Nombre de messages : 2637 Age : 76 Localisation : Raalte, Holland Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 15:58 | |
| - SLT a écrit:
- Frits, I have also saw the inlet disc diagram ; what do you think about 152-88° ?
In theory the inlet should start opening as soon as the pressure in the crankcase had dropped to the pressure level upstream of the inlet disc. In other words, when the pressure difference over the disc is zero. Then we will have the maximum time available for the inlet phase, and the crankcase pressure, which is dropping anyway because of the inertia of the mixture flow from the case to the cylinder, and also a little because of the rising piston after BDC, will not drop quite so strongly, and the flow through the transfer ducts will not be slowed down quite so much. At the rpm of maximum torque the zero pressure difference over the inlet disc occurs at approximately 20° after BDC. But opening the disc when the pressure difference is zero, means that there will be a very weak pressure signal to the carburetor. This will make carburation tuning rather difficult. In a fuel-injected engine this problem would not exist and in that case I would definitely open the disc soon after BDC. - Citation :
- Do you think -considering rotation speed- it would be working without disc !! ? My father, Yves Le Toumelin, told me an anecdote about MZ 125 1960's Kaaden Degner without disc : they forgot it... motor was very difficult to start but working normaly after...)
I had the same experience with the home-built rotary-valve 500cc two-stroke that I raced in the early 70's. Once the inlet disc stuck open when the hexagon in the disc centre ripped apart. Thanks to the suction from the exhaust pipe the engine kept running as long as I stayed in the powerband (this gave me the idea for my 24/7 inlet principle) but of course the carburation was much too rich, because it was never intended to function with a 360° inlet timing. And the same will be the case for the Aprilia RSA: for a 24/7 system to function it would need a rather different combination of carburation settings, inlet tract diameter and length, and crankcase volume. - Citation :
- About your RSA crankcase photo, the cooling system around crankshaft case is it independant and separate, of the main cooling systeme, with radiator and water pomp separate from cylinder cooling circuit ? Stéphane Le Toumelin
There is only one cooling system with everything in series, Stéphane. Separate systems would only make sense if they had different working temperatures. But a radiator with a lower working temperature is less efficient, so it is better to use all available frontal area for one big radiator. |
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Frits Overmars
Nombre de messages : 2637 Age : 76 Localisation : Raalte, Holland Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 16:13 | |
| - Adco a écrit:
- what is the use of the little alloy tube behind the primary case ?
- desmofr16 a écrit:
- Hi, how this system is "oiled" ? by oil of gearbox, without pressure ?
That little alloy tube is the return line to the oil pump that you can see at the left in the picture below. It lubricates the gearbox via oil jets from a gallery above the gears and it also provides lubrication for the balance shaft and the inlet shaft bevel drive. The crankshaft and the piston are lubricated via the usual fuel/oil mixture. [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image] |
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Adco
Nombre de messages : 6453 Localisation : Limoges Date d'inscription : 19/02/2016
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 22:14 | |
| Merci Frits apparemment ce petit rappel était bienvenu :superbe moteur! |
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Marc Admin
Nombre de messages : 28161 Age : 66 Localisation : Villiers sur Marne (94) Date d'inscription : 27/05/2008
| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) Sam 2 Mai - 23:19 | |
| - Frits Overmars a écrit:
- all other alloy engine parts were milled from solid.]
In Italy ? Gorgeous ! Thank you Frits ! But please, stop laughing at paparazzi ! _________________ Un p'tit clik vaut mieux qu'une grande claque; c'est Harry qui l'a dit! [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image][Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] |
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| Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) | |
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| [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) | |
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