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[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Icon_minitimeAujourd'hui à 20:04 par SPI

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Mots-clés
ROAD 2013 coupe bresse aprilia side eurosport ducati aermacchi suzuki RACING wanted charade rouge 1973 1000 race honda daytona classic triumph yamaha france geco zone bourg
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Marc
[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Voting16[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Voting13[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Voting15 
philwood
[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Voting16[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Voting13[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Voting15 
EDOUARD Jean
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mickey
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Pierre"PhilRead"
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Fügner
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Jarno
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yves kerlo
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Dialmax
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janpol84
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AuteurMessage
fd-racing

fd-racing

Nombre de messages : 1023
Age : 56
Localisation : france/fréjus
Date d'inscription : 03/02/2014

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Icon_minitimeJeu 2 Jan 2020 - 21:07

carlovitch1 a écrit:
Maybe the use of standard tubes (for 4 strokes) is reducing the vibration issue. 4 strokes pipes shapes are generally less complex than 2 strokes ones.


In Moto3 class , you'll find your last HP in the exhaust system , nowhere else , and surprisingly a great knowledge/experience in 2 stroke exhaust helps a lot [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 771973



.
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JanBros



Nombre de messages : 261
Localisation : Belgique
Date d'inscription : 05/12/2011

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Empty
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aparently there was an error in a BMEP-link in my 2-stroke excel, fixed it now.

and now there is a way of printing the portmap to actual size, so you can print it, cut out the ports and place it in your cylinder to see where you have to grind the ports some more.


anyone used it already ? any comments ?


new download links to version 1.1 :
excel : [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
manual : [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]


Dernière édition par JanBros le Dim 5 Jan 2020 - 23:02, édité 1 fois
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Toop



Nombre de messages : 3560
Age : 19
Localisation : Tours
Date d'inscription : 02/01/2010

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Empty
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xlsm no found [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 727249
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carlovitch1



Nombre de messages : 305
Localisation : Pays Catalan
Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

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Yes, JanBros, I do confirm: the link does not work.
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JanBros



Nombre de messages : 261
Localisation : Belgique
Date d'inscription : 05/12/2011

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fixed it ;-)
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carlovitch1



Nombre de messages : 305
Localisation : Pays Catalan
Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

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Thanks, JanBros !
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koenich



Nombre de messages : 111
Localisation : Germany
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2012

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carlovitch1 a écrit:
About the pipe material selection, being a materials engineer (for pressure vessel engineering, not vehicles), I'm a bit surprised that stainless steel is considered. Is this austenitic SS like 304/316L or a specific grade? Austenitic stainless steel does not like vibrations and is also very sensitive to cold work effects compared to carbon steel. My idea was that they will not last long.
Nearly all car exhaust lines are out of stainless steel - grade depends on exhaust gas temp and optic requirements. Even fabricated manifolds (deep drawn or bended pipes etc) are common...
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carlovitch1



Nombre de messages : 305
Localisation : Pays Catalan
Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

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Do you know some of the exact stainless steel grades used for car exhausts? I would be insterested to know whether they are austenitic or other kinds.
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Dan42



Nombre de messages : 5752
Localisation : Margerie-Chantagret 42
Date d'inscription : 06/04/2014

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I think 304L and 316L are good, L is for low carbon, better to weld assembly . No mixed parts whith carbon steel, passivation after welding.
Dan
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carlovitch1



Nombre de messages : 305
Localisation : Pays Catalan
Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

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These are indeed austenitic grades, maybe they resist better on 4 strokes because of lower vibration frequency and use of real tubes almost everywhere, so less welding and forming residual stresses.
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koenich



Nombre de messages : 111
Localisation : Germany
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2012

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carlovitch1 a écrit:
Do you know some of the exact stainless steel grades used for car exhausts? I would be insterested to know whether they are austenitic or other kinds.
Standard materials and therefore readily available...:
- Ferritic grades: 1.4509 (441), 1.4512 (409)
- Austenitic grades: 1.4301 (304), 1.4828 (309)

To build a SS 2-stroke exhaust I'd recommend using 1.4301 or 1.4509.

Most important thing is to use the right weldfiller due to different thermal expansion ratios in between austenitic and ferritic grades:
- Ferritic weld filler: 1.4509 or 1.4511
- Austenitic weld filler: 1.4370

You can mix SS with mild steel but always use higher grade weld filler (1.4370 for e.g.).
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carlovitch1



Nombre de messages : 305
Localisation : Pays Catalan
Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

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Thanks for this info Dan42 and koenich. For me the easiest available is 1.4307 (304L). I will give it a try.
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RAW



Nombre de messages : 83
Localisation : Australia
Date d'inscription : 05/05/2012

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Empty
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Stainless steel is a work hardening material, much like titanium thus it will crack quite quickly compared to mild steel.
The most suitable grade of stainless steel for exhaust piping is G321, this grade will provide a longer useful life compared to other austenitic grades.
Shrinkage stresses within the welded joints can reduce the useful life cycle of a pipe immensely.
Perfectly tight fit ups of each joint is highly recommended, at every spot that a gap is present the shrinkage forces to the material directly adjacent to the weld will be pulled towards the welds centre as the weld solidifies resulting in this area being highly stressed, much like a tightened guitar string. These highly stressed zones fundamentally due to gaps before welding will be where the cracks begin.
Obviously there can be numerous additional factors aswell however gaps are the most prevalent error.
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Dan42



Nombre de messages : 5752
Localisation : Margerie-Chantagret 42
Date d'inscription : 06/04/2014

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Ok, G321 S.steel is 304 added whith titanium, better for corrosive environment, the brother of 316Ti that we used in such conditions. [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 809262
Dan
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RAW



Nombre de messages : 83
Localisation : Australia
Date d'inscription : 05/05/2012

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It is the Nickle % increase that makes 321 superior
Turbo turbine wheels are pro dominantly made from inconel. This has a very high nickle content, nickle increases strength at elevated temperatures, increases toughness, oxidisation resistance, creep resistance to name a few over 316 & or 304.
It’s suited far better to an exhaust environment than any other grade of stainless steel period.
Probably explains why it’s used in the aviation industry
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koenich



Nombre de messages : 111
Localisation : Germany
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2012

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MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Icon_minitimeMer 8 Jan 2020 - 11:40

RAW a écrit:
It is the Nickle % increase that makes 321 superior
Turbo turbine wheels are pro dominantly made from inconel. This has a very high nickle content, nickle increases strength at elevated temperatures, increases toughness, oxidisation resistance, creep resistance to name a few over 316 & or 304.
It’s suited far better to an exhaust environment than any other grade of stainless steel period.
Probably explains why it’s used in the aviation industry
Tell that to hundreds of millions of car exhausts made out of the grades I mentioned previously Wink The high nickle content is only necessary when running temps close to or above 1000°C. No 2 stroke has those...

E.g. - 1.4301/1.4307 is great for cold forming, has a good weldability and will not get brittle while welding due to the low carbon content. The ductility of the stainless grades is better than for mild steel and yield strength over temp is also far better. A 2-stroke exhaust is not in a corrosive environment, the only thing that'll happen is hot gas corrosion which the mentioned stainless materials are also superior.

In the end no one is aiming for 200k km's or 3000 full thermal cycles so a lot of materials will work. Just do the best you can when rolling the parts and you don't even need a weld filler, if so choose the right one and you are good to go.
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carlovitch1



Nombre de messages : 305
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Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Icon_minitimeMer 8 Jan 2020 - 15:05

About 321, to my knowledge, it is simply a 304 stabilized with Ti against the intergranular corrosion risk. But indeed the Nickel content is slightly increased (from 8 to 9% min), frankly speaking I did not notice that. I don't know exactly why, because this is not highlighted in the various technical papers on it.

We use it in my company for oil refinery applications.
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JanBros



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[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Icon_minitimeDim 12 Jan 2020 - 1:47

another small error has come up in my excel.

I've openend e new topic, as that will be easier to keep track of updates/corrections etc :

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LeonardoMRF2



Nombre de messages : 6
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Date d'inscription : 28/04/2019

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Icon_minitimeMar 14 Jan 2020 - 2:51

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Mr. Frits and Mr. Jan, or as far as you can tell, I do not recall seeing here specifically these Aprilia RSA 125 piston measurements and the material used
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

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Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Icon_minitimeMar 14 Jan 2020 - 16:59

LeonardoMRF2 a écrit:
Mr. Frits and Mr. Jan, or as far as you can tell, I do not recall seeing here specifically these Aprilia RSA 125 piston measurements and the material used
That is not an Aprilia piston Leonardo. It belongs to a series of sketches showing my method of piston plugging.
The piston dimensions themselves are not relevant here.
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LeonardoMRF2



Nombre de messages : 6
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Date d'inscription : 28/04/2019

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5) - Page 37 Icon_minitimeMar 14 Jan 2020 - 19:58

I'm sorry Frits, I didn't explain, I used your drawing just to illustrate my question, what I want is the Aprilia RSA 125 piston dimensions, I want to compare with a reference that I use to size pistons

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