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 [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)

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op76



Nombre de messages : 18
Localisation : Suomi
Date d'inscription : 26/08/2018

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Ven 31 Aoû 2018 - 20:21

...


Dernière édition par op76 le Lun 3 Sep 2018 - 13:26, édité 3 fois
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op76



Nombre de messages : 18
Localisation : Suomi
Date d'inscription : 26/08/2018

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Lun 3 Sep 2018 - 8:59

Frits please, could you be so kind and answer for this one. I have tried to measure and calculate those angle areas, so my question is, that how would you estimate max.rpm (and HP) from these figures, so that I can make matching pipe? Is it bad to have blowdown much higher than transfers or vice versa? It doesn't have to be bulletproof analysis, just you quick estimation will do.

Case 1.
50cc (bore 41, stroke 37,8) with transfers reaching 66.16°mm²/cc/1000rpm @ 11136rpm and blowdown 8.72 @ 17847. Transfer timing 130, exhaust 196. Carburetor 22mm.

Case 2.
80cc (bore 52, stroke 37,8) with transfers 66.16 @ 9997, blowdown 8.72 @ 6429, timings 130 and 200. Carburetor 28mm (or bigger?)

Both would get same kind of head that in RSA. Compression ratio 11:1

(Latter one is existing cylinder, not looking too good)
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Frits Overmars

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Nombre de messages : 2038
Age : 70
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Lun 3 Sep 2018 - 10:52

I try to avoid giving quick estimations based on insufficient input. You provided 7 relevant values per engine; I would need about another 100 values, plus at least two full days, if I were to give some meaningful answers. Almost all the questions that you asked during the past week have already been answered by Jan Thiel and myself over the past eight years in the threads I proposed:
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Please read those.
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op76



Nombre de messages : 18
Localisation : Suomi
Date d'inscription : 26/08/2018

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Lun 3 Sep 2018 - 11:26

Ok. I guess I just need to start testing then.

Btw. I already read all these 5 parts...but I still don't really know where to start to solve this puzzle. I had thought, that I calculate these angle areas, and get some kind of estimation about rev range, which could perhaps give me some kind of estimation about HP. Using these values I could then build a pipe, which wouldn't be too far off.

I don't have much money to spend for bad experiments But I will build my own inertia dyno right away, because I don't have possibility to test at road very often.
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thankspipe



Nombre de messages : 1
Localisation : Indonesia
Date d'inscription : 08/09/2018

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Sam 8 Sep 2018 - 20:05

Hi all,
i'm an unknown tuner and i really appreciate this amazing forum and all the huge amount of knowledge and experiences gave from Mr. Frits and  Mr. Jan, i can just say WOW thank you to share this "two strokes wise".
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Frits Overmars

avatar

Nombre de messages : 2038
Age : 70
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Sam 8 Sep 2018 - 21:36

thankspipe a écrit:
Hi all,
i'm an unknown tuner and i really appreciate this amazing forum and all the huge amount of knowledge and experiences gave from Mr. Frits and  Mr. Jan, i can just say WOW thank you to share this "two strokes wise".
Thank you so much Thankspipe Very Happy .
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op76



Nombre de messages : 18
Localisation : Suomi
Date d'inscription : 26/08/2018

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Mer 12 Sep 2018 - 11:25

Frits or Jan, what was the piston to cylinder clearance on RSA, and did you try, how much more or less of that would have affected to power?

And what was the breaking in procedure (did you try any other on that)?

It's commonly said to put little more oil on 2-stroke (like adding 1% to your gas) when you are breaking in. I remember that I read somewhere, that using more oil in 2-strokes would even benefit power, do you have any information of that? How much oil is the optimum for power?
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Dan42



Nombre de messages : 4602
Localisation : Margerie-Chantagret 42
Date d'inscription : 06/04/2014

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Mer 12 Sep 2018 - 17:54

Frits said: 5% of synthetic oil, whith less the power decrease ( page 18).
My question is: does the power increase whith a lot of oil only by good lubrication or also by a lean air fuel mix? ( more oil ,less fuel).

Frits a précisé: 5% d'huile de synthèse, avec mois d'huile la puissance décroit ( v. page 18).
Ma question est: est-ce que la puissance augmente avec la quantité d'huile seulement par une meilleure lubrification et /ou aussi par le fait d'un mélange plus pauvre? ( plus d'huile donne moins d'essence dans le mélange).
Dan
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Jan Thiel



Nombre de messages : 468
Age : 78
Localisation : Bangkok
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Jeu 13 Sep 2018 - 7:46

op76 a écrit:
Frits or Jan, what was the piston to cylinder clearance on RSA, and did you try, how much more or less of that would have affected to power?

And what was the breaking in procedure (did you try any other on that)?

It's commonly said to put little more oil on 2-stroke (like adding 1% to your gas) when you are breaking in. I remember that I read somewhere, that using more oil in 2-strokes would even benefit power, do you have any information of that? How much oil is the optimum for power?

0,04mm was recommended, 0,05 gave more power, and 0,06 gave the same power as 0,04
5% oil gave more power than 4%, 6% was not tried.
More oil gave better sealing I think.
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op76



Nombre de messages : 18
Localisation : Suomi
Date d'inscription : 26/08/2018

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Ven 14 Sep 2018 - 12:49

Ok, thanks. What is the right way to measure the clearance?

I believe it was Gordon Jennings, who's findings were that 1:15 oil/fuel ratio gave about 15% more power than 1:30 ratio (on quite modest powered machine). That is huge difference. Difference between 1:15 and 1:20 was not huge, but still remarkable I recall.

There was also some study, that 0.05mm clearance gave about 10% more power than 0.10mm. Do you guys agree with these numbers, or are they less significant for garage tuners?

And if someone could please explain to me this RSA exhaust duct, as I cannot seem to find it anywhere again. I believe Frits didn't implement same kind of "step" to his FOS cylinder concept, why is that?

If I tune my own cylinder, should I have suppression in exhaust duct and step where pipe begins? If my exhaust main area is 650mm² (corresponding 28.8mm diameter circle) then I suppress it to 585mm² (27.3mm). And then again have larger exhaust pipe by some per cent? Or how should I do it?


Dernière édition par op76 le Ven 14 Sep 2018 - 17:53, édité 1 fois
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Frits Overmars

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Nombre de messages : 2038
Age : 70
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Ven 14 Sep 2018 - 13:10

.


Dernière édition par Frits Overmars le Ven 14 Sep 2018 - 16:04, édité 1 fois
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carlovitch1



Nombre de messages : 97
Localisation : Pays Catalan
Date d'inscription : 20/05/2018

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Ven 14 Sep 2018 - 15:55

Measuring piston to cylinder clearance is generally indicated in your owner's manual and can differ from engine to engine (the spot where the piston size shall be measured). It usually requires micrometers.
However if you don't have such equipment (an inside micrometer can be quite expensive), you can check with clearance gauges when putting your piston inside the cylinder and trying to find the clearance between the bottom of the sleeve and the piston skirt bottom. It is less precise of course.
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JanBros



Nombre de messages : 218
Localisation : Belgique
Date d'inscription : 05/12/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Ven 14 Sep 2018 - 22:45

@ op76 : what the exhaust duct should look like is explained in the excell you have from me. It is the "Wobbly exhaust duct", and is all explained in the ESE-topic at Kiwi-biker.
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op76



Nombre de messages : 18
Localisation : Suomi
Date d'inscription : 26/08/2018

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   Sam 15 Sep 2018 - 0:37

Haha, I had skipped that text-part completely, and I thought Wobbly meant some shaky spring fastening system Thanks JB
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MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 5)   

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