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DidierF, Jan Thiel, MANETON

Le record du nombre d'utilisateurs en ligne est de 187 le Lun 3 Déc 2012 - 14:45
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AuteurMessage
Vortex



Nombre de messages : 41
Localisation : Luxembourg
Date d'inscription : 26/11/2013

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MessageSujet: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeJeu 27 Mar 2014 - 19:11

Hi guys,

Please check this crankcase, and let me know what you think about!


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Thanks
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SB07



Nombre de messages : 52
Age : 39
Localisation : Goito (MN) Italy
Date d'inscription : 05/12/2010

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MessageSujet: Re: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeVen 28 Mar 2014 - 16:27



This is new Vortex KF crankcase engine...
For me, this is old solution...

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brokedown



Nombre de messages : 151
Localisation : usa
Date d'inscription : 29/09/2013

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MessageSujet: Re: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeDim 30 Mar 2014 - 1:07

i find this photo of ktm 125cc from 1985 !


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Helmers



Nombre de messages : 30
Age : 43
Localisation : Norway
Date d'inscription : 16/01/2015

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MessageSujet: Re: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeMer 17 Fév 2016 - 20:32

I have a question regarding the design of 'closed upper crankcase'.

I'm sure many of you have seen these types of design, both on gp and 125 kart engines, for example yzr500 and TM engines. The engine case kind of separates the crankcase from the volume under the cylinder.

When this type of crankcase design is used, a slot for the conrod is made but also a wider opening is present towards the inlet or the exhaust side on reed valve engines. My question;

Should the wider opening into the crankshaft prevent better lubrication of the bearings by sucking flow into the crankcase, and therefor be located at the side which sucks the mixture in with the help of the crankshaft rotation?

Henrik
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Ian Harrison



Nombre de messages : 100
Localisation : United Kingdom
Date d'inscription : 28/08/2012

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MessageSujet: Re: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeJeu 18 Fév 2016 - 18:27

Hi Henrik

This arrangement you describe is usually used in reed valve kart type engines (carb on the front/exhaust out of the back).
The crank shrouding at the front of the crank chamber prevents the crankshaft (which rotates against inlet flow direction) interfering with that flow too much. The full width "cutout" at the rear (exhaust side) allows the rotating crankshaft and ascending conrod to promote and "boost" flow upwards through the transfer tunnels to the cylinder.

I don't believe that this arrangement interferes in any way with main bearing/big-end lubrication.

VHM came up with another solution with their 125cc kart motor, in which the inlet port was below the crankshaft, so that the rotation of the crankshaft "pulled" the mixture into the engine.

Best Regards

Ian Very Happy
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Helmers



Nombre de messages : 30
Age : 43
Localisation : Norway
Date d'inscription : 16/01/2015

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MessageSujet: Re: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeJeu 18 Fév 2016 - 20:10

Hi Ian!

Thanks for you're reply again. As you understand, I'm not only working on the Vdue engine :)

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I'm not sure if I managed to paste the picture I wanted to share from my pad, if not, I'll do it from my computer tomorrow.

I think I understood you're explanation. If the shrouding over the crankshaft does not affect the lubrication of the main bearings in a negative way, I'll think I'll keep it as is. I have feeling that it's better than the std opening in the upper engine case, especially with an old designed crankshaft not being very aerodynamic!

By the way, the Honda RS models might have the same design as VHM. I guessit's also very good for bearing lubrication.

Best regards Henrik!

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Ian Harrison



Nombre de messages : 100
Localisation : United Kingdom
Date d'inscription : 28/08/2012

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MessageSujet: Re: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeVen 19 Fév 2016 - 2:36

Hi Henrik

Here is a picture of the VHM 125 and it's crankcase showing the inlet tract.

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I don't know if it was any good??

Best Regards

Ian Very Happy
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Helmers



Nombre de messages : 30
Age : 43
Localisation : Norway
Date d'inscription : 16/01/2015

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MessageSujet: Re: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeVen 19 Fév 2016 - 13:13

Hi Ian

Okay, I see that VHM really are trying to utilize the effect of the spinning crankshaft. Do you know if it adds much more power?

I have also another question. Behind the reed valve you will usually have a confined space or volume. (The VHM engine is the exception) From my understanding, a certain crankcase volume / primary volume is desired on reed valve engines. However, should one aim to minimize the the volume behind the reed valve as much as possible?

Regards Henrik
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2243
Age : 71
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

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MessageSujet: Re: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeVen 19 Fév 2016 - 19:41

Ian Harrison a écrit:
Here is a picture of the VHM 125 and it's crankcase showing the inlet tract.
Spot the difference:
Villa crankcase half with low inlet tract                                                   VHM crankcase half with low inlet tract
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(the difference is about 30 years. Or maybe 40...)
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Jan Thiel



Nombre de messages : 487
Age : 79
Localisation : Bangkok
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

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MessageSujet: Re: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeLun 22 Fév 2016 - 3:01

Both engines were unsuccessful.
At Aprilia we once tested a 125 kart engine.
To see if there was anything positive in a reed-valve engine.
There was not....
We also tried to make the crankshaft run 'rearward'
That gave 1,5HP more!
So I think a different kind of primary drive would make sense.
Belt or chain drive....
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JanBros



Nombre de messages : 248
Localisation : Belgique
Date d'inscription : 05/12/2011

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MessageSujet: Re: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeLun 22 Fév 2016 - 21:35

Jan Thiel a écrit:
Both engines were unsuccessful.
At Aprilia we once tested a 125 kart engine.
To see if there was anything positive in a reed-valve engine.
There was not....
We also tried to make the crankshaft run 'rearward'
That gave 1,5HP more!
So I think a different kind of primary drive would make sense.
Belt or chain drive....

So can we conclude that it's best to mount the carb above the crank webs so the flow can go directly to the transfers, un-interfered by the cank ? Was that the main reason for the disc at the back in the RSA?
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Helmers



Nombre de messages : 30
Age : 43
Localisation : Norway
Date d'inscription : 16/01/2015

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MessageSujet: Re: Crankcase with conductive wings.   Crankcase with conductive wings. Icon_minitimeLun 22 Fév 2016 - 22:20



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If the crankshaft only interferes with the scavenging prosess, it seems like a good idea to separate it as much as possible. However,  you will loose some primary volume in the crankcase, but maybe it's not a big deal on the reedvalve engines which seems to benefit from a bit higher compession ratio to open the reeds than what you want in a rotary valve engine.

Hopefully the main bearings will get sufficient lubrication anyway. I have also made a radius in the shape of the upper engine case to direct the flow under the piston towards the transfers. 110mm rods and a thicker adapter plate are also in progress Wink

Best regards Henrik!

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