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» [Oldies] Quizz (26)
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeAujourd'hui à 22:55 par bubu

» [SORTIES] Sunday Ride Classic 2022, 11 et 12 juin
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeAujourd'hui à 22:26 par Joel Enndewell 2424

» [Oldies] 250 PERNOD
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeAujourd'hui à 11:34 par Ed

» (Oldies) Un Pépé, des coques (et accessoirement des poutres)
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeHier à 21:19 par yves kerlo

» [Oldies] Un petit bout de l’histoire Morbidelli, 1977-1979
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeHier à 20:32 par spreyer

» [MotoGP] GP de France 2022 au Mans - Les 13 , 14 et 15 Mai 2022
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeHier à 18:06 par EDOUARD Jean

» controle technique moto
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» [Oldies] Les Suzuki d'usine 50 et 125cc à Bourg en Bresse en 1966
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» [SORTIES] Vintage Revival Montlhéry mai 2022
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» [Oldies] Jarno Saarinen, la star qui a revolutionné le pilotage (Part 5)
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeHier à 0:41 par DidierF

» [Oldies] Les transporteurs de motos des paddocks
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» [Oldies] Des livres sur la course moto
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeJeu 19 Mai 2022 - 23:57 par DidierF

» [ oldies ] Les photos de Roger Lohrer
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» Tom Dickie RIP
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeJeu 19 Mai 2022 - 13:33 par philwood

» [Fiction] Steak...
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMer 18 Mai 2022 - 16:03 par janpol84

» Mais pourquoi le pneu AR est plus large?
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMar 17 Mai 2022 - 22:26 par justin

» CONTROLE TECH
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMar 17 Mai 2022 - 21:54 par Mykeul

» [Technique] Honda racing des sixties
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» Le petit avantage de la Bestia.
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMar 17 Mai 2022 - 16:08 par Aragon

» North West 200
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMar 17 Mai 2022 - 9:57 par Aragon

» [Oldies] Honda 6
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeLun 16 Mai 2022 - 20:01 par T54

» [Pit Laners en course!] Clément Révolte (coupe YAMAHA R125)
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeLun 16 Mai 2022 - 16:01 par BOOZE

» Alain Michel
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeLun 16 Mai 2022 - 15:24 par janpol84

» Honda Monkey
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeDim 15 Mai 2022 - 13:03 par Joel Enndewell 2424

» [MotoGP] GP 2022 d' Espagne à Jerez - du 29 - 30 Avril et 1er Mai 2022
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeSam 14 Mai 2022 - 13:39 par philwood

» [Oldies] Les Aermacchi deux temps
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeSam 14 Mai 2022 - 10:05 par dulas frederic

» [Oldies] Circuit Bourg en Bresse 1971
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeVen 13 Mai 2022 - 14:45 par DidierF

» [Oldies] Questions (vitesse 1947-1976)
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeVen 13 Mai 2022 - 7:44 par berlu

» [SORTIES] 19 et20 mars 2022 ISSOIRE
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeJeu 12 Mai 2022 - 17:35 par Niko

» [Oldies] Honda 50 twin RC113/114/115 /116
wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeJeu 12 Mai 2022 - 15:27 par T54

La réclame...
Mots-clés
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La réclame...
Le deal à ne pas rater :
Cartes Pokémon – coffret ETB Astres Radieux EB10
Voir le deal

 

 [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)

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AuteurMessage
Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars


Nombre de messages : 2485
Age : 73
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeLun 31 Mar 2014 - 15:55

fpayart a écrit:
La pression appliquée sur le liquide de refroidissement est destinée à retarder l'apparition de la cavitation dans certaines zones.
 wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 771973
Cavitation can be caused by two events: high flow velocities around tight bends, and engine vibration.
When an engine vibrates, the metal surfaces move away from the liquid occasionally. Because of the inertia of the liquid, underpressure will occur between the liquid and the metal and this underpressure can cause local boiling of the liquid.
A pressurized cooling system will suppress this boiling and can make the cooling much more effective.
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Manuel Rainer




Nombre de messages : 98
Localisation : Italy
Date d'inscription : 30/10/2012

wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeLun 31 Mar 2014 - 22:12

Vortex a écrit:
Manuel Rainer a écrit:
Vortex a écrit:

Sorry Manuel,
But how can you reach a compression ratio of 16:1 with a kartengine with a min. volume of 11cc with a in this engine normaly used mainexhaust diagramm of something between 195 and mabe 197 degree?
The corrected one is for sure under 10:1!
For me Mr. Thiel is right when he wrote; The fresh mixture did not reach the spark plug anymore.
Maybe too much turbulences?

hi

i am not driving official races. there is no limitation of head volume.

i got to 16:1 in my 125 TM KV95 rotary valve engine, with a head volume of 8,3 cc. ex on 197° squis gab 0,8. in this case the engine not want to rev over 13800.


Hi,
Ok that changes everything.
How much advance do you use?
Did you try more squish?
Which exhaust temp. do you reach?


hi

i have 0,9mm before TDC it is about 13,3° advance. in all tests the same.
the head is made like the one of the RSA.

i have tried 0,7 squish where i think the compression is near 17:1 the engine dont rev over 13500.
i have tried 1,0 squish where i think the compression is near 14:1 the engine revs over 14300.
i dont have different heads to test only the squish an let the compression. in my tests i change always 2 things. compression and squish. i know the right way is to cange always only 1 thing and see, but i dont have the posibility to do that. an for this was my question if the compression also can let an engine dont rev as much as with less compression.

i dont have a EGT. so i dont know the es temperatur.

thanks Riley i gonna see if i can get one.

Manuel
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koenich




Nombre de messages : 112
Localisation : Germany
Date d'inscription : 07/02/2012

wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeLun 31 Mar 2014 - 22:24

hey manuel,

you can fairly easy check the volume with a CAD program - just draw a negative including squish and then go to properties.

On my 50cc Derbi (with Conti cylinder and Conti insert) I made the experience that with a squish of 0,5 mm it just stopped revving at 13.500, had no overrev and detonated the sh*t out of the piston. After adjusting squish to 0,7 it was much nicer to drive and had plenty overrev.

Next step was to fabricate some custom inserts acc. to Frits/Jan/RSA guideline with different volumes, now I can lower the squish to 0,5 and maintain the overrev. Those inserts made quite a big improvement on band width and peak. So you might want to get inserts with different radii manufactured and test them...
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Emmanuel Laurentz

Emmanuel Laurentz


Nombre de messages : 4835
Age : 62
Localisation : PACA
Date d'inscription : 07/12/2009

wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeLun 31 Mar 2014 - 22:33

Voici la traduction, merci Frits c'est exactement de quoi je voulais parler, en plus du début d’ébullition causer par les bouchons tarer à 0,9 bar.

La cavitation peut être causée par deux événements: des vitesses d'écoulement élevées virages serrés autour, et les vibrations du moteur.
Lorsqu'un moteur vibre, les surfaces métalliques s'éloignent du liquide de temps en temps. En raison de l'inertie du liquide, une dépression se produit entre le liquide et le métal, et cette sous-pression peut provoquer l'ébullition locale du liquide.
Un système de refroidissement sous pression permet de réprimer cette ébullition et peut rendre le refroidissement beaucoup plus efficace.


 wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 980796 
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars


Nombre de messages : 2485
Age : 73
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMar 1 Avr 2014 - 0:09

Merci Emmanuel  wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 771973.

Your reaction makes me happy for more than one reason. Although I love this topic, it concerns me that it becomes more and more English (my own fault) and less and less French, and I feel somewhat guilty vis-à-vis my French hosts.
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Toop




Nombre de messages : 3769
Age : 22
Localisation : Tours
Date d'inscription : 02/01/2010

wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMar 1 Avr 2014 - 4:16

Frits, nous lisons pas à pas ce qui se dit ici.
Quand je dis "nous", je parle des passionnés du 2tps au sens large, qu'ils soient francophone ou bien anglophone !
Nous sommes plusieurs à porter ce qui se dit dans ce topic dans nos moteurs.
Cela prend un peu de temps, à l'échelle d'un passionné pas forcément "riche".
Il est vrai aussi que peu de monde est enclin à modifier la géométrie de leur moteur ... question de moyens, de finances, de compétences ...
Même si il est certain que l'anglais écrit ralenti la compréhension pour la majorité des français,nous prive de détails, nous y sommes un peu habitués ... dans la vie de tous les jours.

Une chose est certaine, ce que vous et Jan communiquez dans ce topic, en terme de connaissances technique est fabuleux pour ceux dont ce n'est pas le métier mais certainement la passion d'une vie et en cela vous avez nos remerciements !!!!!

 wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 241515 wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 241515



edit : je ne connais pas de forum où on ne parle pas de ce qui se dit ici, je ne sais pas si vous imaginez la porté que celà peut avoir ... je connais des personnes ( dont je ne donnerai pas le nom lol! ) qui ont imprimé les deux topics afin de les relire dans leur lit  wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 771973
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RAW




Nombre de messages : 86
Localisation : Australia
Date d'inscription : 05/05/2012

wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMar 1 Avr 2014 - 8:42

Frits, no complaints here for the English, I'm sure there are many many many others out there whom appreciate not only the topic but also the language, you have reached far and wide to all edges of the globe by doing so
Thank you
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bentou

bentou


Nombre de messages : 2118
Age : 62
Localisation : Hauts de Seine
Date d'inscription : 06/04/2012

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Frits, even french speaking people here is happy that you dont use your native language... and happy also than Jan doensn't write in Thaï.

ขอขอบคุณในเดือนมกราคม, Dank je Frits.
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http://mapage.noos.fr/jetable/tobec/root.html
romeuh80




Nombre de messages : 102
Age : 32
Localisation : Leiria, Portugal
Date d'inscription : 15/10/2011

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Hello Again.

Been some time I didn't came here. I see some questions had been "reposted" or the level of questions had fall to the very beginner level. Unfortunely I have to respost a little too, because I can't find the info in this the long long thread.

Just to little questions. Frits, if you can answer please, many thanks.

About the ring clearance between his edges, if I remember it was said that 0,5mm was the minimun, and 0,4 seized, is that right?

Also, If a ring as a cooper/bronze side, this side will be up? Towards the piston crown, to prevent some detonation or even transfer heat a bit better?

Many Thanks  wanted - [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 40 771973
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars


Nombre de messages : 2485
Age : 73
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

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romeuh80 a écrit:
About the ring clearance between his edges, if I remember it was said that 0,5mm was the minimun, and 0,4 seized, is that right?
No, it's not. The minimum safe ring gap clearance is 0,5 % of the cylinder bore.
Citation :
If a ring as a cooper/bronze side, this side will be up? Towards the piston crown, to prevent some detonation or even transfer heat a bit better?
If a ring has only one coated side, I would put it on the underside to minimize the friction in the ring groove.
If you have removed a ring and can't remember which side was down, put the shiny, polished side down.
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romeuh80




Nombre de messages : 102
Age : 32
Localisation : Leiria, Portugal
Date d'inscription : 15/10/2011

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That's is 0,27mm.

So I was forgoted and wrong it seems.... glad to came here.

Thanks
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Manuel Rainer




Nombre de messages : 98
Localisation : Italy
Date d'inscription : 30/10/2012

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koenich a écrit:
hey manuel,

you can fairly easy check the volume with a CAD program - just draw a negative including squish and then go to properties.

On my 50cc Derbi (with Conti cylinder and Conti insert) I made the experience that with a squish of 0,5 mm it just stopped revving at 13.500, had no overrev and detonated the sh*t out of the piston. After adjusting squish to 0,7 it was much nicer to drive and had plenty overrev.

Next step was to fabricate some custom inserts acc. to Frits/Jan/RSA guideline with different volumes, now I can lower the squish to 0,5 and maintain the overrev. Those inserts made quite a big improvement on band width and peak. So you might want to get inserts with different radii manufactured and test them...

hi koenich

did your engine dont rev and detonate of the fact of too high compression or because it has a different shape?

i have checked the volume with Inventor i only was not remembering the precis value an i cant get mi notices.


thanks Manuel
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Piquer




Nombre de messages : 23
Age : 31
Localisation : uk
Date d'inscription : 13/11/2011

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Hi Mr. Jan, Mr. Frits and everybody.
Sorry for the question, I know you do not like air-cooled engines, but the reglament prevent us from using water cooling ...
The question: We use a Bultaco 250 engine with aluminum cylinder and iron cast sleeve. Can I mount a aluminium sleeve and apply nikasil?
I have not ever made and do not know if anyone will have any experience with this, what do you think?
If yes, what type of aluminum would be suitable for the sleeve?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars


Nombre de messages : 2485
Age : 73
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

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Yes Piquer, using an aluminium sleeve with nikasil is a very good idea. There are many types of aluminium with good mechanical properties, but not all of them are suitable for nikasil treatment. It is advisable to check with the firm that will be applying the nikasil.
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Piquer




Nombre de messages : 23
Age : 31
Localisation : uk
Date d'inscription : 13/11/2011

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Frits Overmars a écrit:
Yes Piquer, using an aluminium sleeve with nikasil is a very good idea. There are many types of aluminium with good mechanical properties, but not all of them are suitable for nikasil treatment. It is advisable to check with the firm that will be applying the nikasil.

thank you very much Mr. Frits.
As aluminum has a higher dilation coefficient than iron cast, I would have left a less tolerance, it's correct?
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Piquer




Nombre de messages : 23
Age : 31
Localisation : uk
Date d'inscription : 13/11/2011

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Frits Overmars a écrit:
Yes Piquer, using an aluminium sleeve with nikasil is a very good idea. There are many types of aluminium with good mechanical properties, but not all of them are suitable for nikasil treatment. It is advisable to check with the firm that will be applying the nikasil.

Thank you very much Mr. Frits.
As aluminum has a higher dilation coefficient than iron cast, I would have left a less tolerance between the cylinder and the sleeve, it's correct?

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