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 [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)

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AuteurMessage
Mic



Nombre de messages : 62
Localisation : Denmark
Date d'inscription : 12/02/2012

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Empty
MessageSujet: Primary gear ration   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Icon_minitimeLun 18 Nov 2013 - 17:31

Question for Jan and Frits

What primary gear ratio would be ideal for a 250cc 2 cylinder engine?

Fast rotating gearbox would have less torque load on the gear but I guess also higher power loss?

Rotax 256         22:58= 2.6364
Rotax 258         32:77= 2.4063
PVP252             26:58= 2.2308
DEA SK251 std. 21:55= 2.619
DEA SK251 opt. 22:54= 2.4545
RSA125             23:70= 3.0435
RSW125            27:68= 2.5185
BRC250             22:58= 2.6364

Is it something you can measure on a dyno or will it only make a difference on the track?


Dernière édition par Mic le Lun 18 Nov 2013 - 19:43, édité 1 fois
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Seb4LO

Seb4LO

Nombre de messages : 2605
Localisation : Concarneau
Date d'inscription : 05/07/2009

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Icon_minitimeLun 18 Nov 2013 - 18:48

affraid Shocked 

Do you really think they have divination abilities ?
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Jan Thiel



Nombre de messages : 501
Age : 79
Localisation : Bangkok
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Icon_minitimeMar 19 Nov 2013 - 3:09

Mic a écrit:
Question for Jan and Frits

What primary gear ratio would be ideal for a 250cc 2 cylinder engine?

Fast rotating gearbox would have less torque load on the gear but I guess also higher power loss?

Rotax 256         22:58= 2.6364
Rotax 258         32:77= 2.4063
PVP252             26:58= 2.2308
DEA SK251 std. 21:55= 2.619
DEA SK251 opt. 22:54= 2.4545
RSA125             23:70= 3.0435
RSW125            27:68= 2.5185
BRC250             22:58= 2.6364

Is it something you can measure on a dyno or will it only make a difference on the track?
The slower the gearbox turns, the less the friction loss is!
So in this case the RSA would be the best, and the PVP the worst.
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LucF



Nombre de messages : 110
Age : 76
Localisation : Pays Bas
Date d'inscription : 25/05/2011

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Icon_minitimeJeu 21 Nov 2013 - 14:01

Jan Thiel a écrit:
Mic a écrit:
Question for Jan and Frits

What primary gear ratio would be ideal for a 250cc 2 cylinder engine?

Fast rotating gearbox would have less torque load on the gear but I guess also higher power loss?

Rotax 256         22:58= 2.6364
Rotax 258         32:77= 2.4063
PVP252             26:58= 2.2308
DEA SK251 std. 21:55= 2.619
DEA SK251 opt. 22:54= 2.4545
RSA125             23:70= 3.0435
RSW125            27:68= 2.5185
BRC250             22:58= 2.6364

Is it something you can measure on a dyno or will it only make a difference on the track?
The slower the gearbox turns, the less the friction loss is!
So in this case the RSA would be the best, and the PVP the worst.
3.0435/2.5185 = 1.21 = 21% more power loss.
When RSA power loss is 4.3% than RSW = 5.1%
RSA 54hp *(100%-5.1%)/(100%-4.3%)= RSW 53.5hp
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http://www.geocities.ws/lucfoekema/indexNL.html
Jan Thiel



Nombre de messages : 501
Age : 79
Localisation : Bangkok
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Icon_minitimeVen 22 Nov 2013 - 2:38

LucF a écrit:
Jan Thiel a écrit:
Mic a écrit:
Question for Jan and Frits

What primary gear ratio would be ideal for a 250cc 2 cylinder engine?

Fast rotating gearbox would have less torque load on the gear but I guess also higher power loss?

Rotax 256         22:58= 2.6364
Rotax 258         32:77= 2.4063
PVP252             26:58= 2.2308
DEA SK251 std. 21:55= 2.619
DEA SK251 opt. 22:54= 2.4545
RSA125             23:70= 3.0435
RSW125            27:68= 2.5185
BRC250             22:58= 2.6364

Is it something you can measure on a dyno or will it only make a difference on the track?
The slower the gearbox turns, the less the friction loss is!
So in this case the RSA would be the best, and the PVP the worst.
3.0435/2.5185 = 1.21 = 21% more power loss.
When RSA power loss is 4.3% than RSW = 5.1%
RSA 54hp *(100%-5.1%)/(100%-4.3%)= RSW 53.5hp
Yes, OK Luc, thank you!
But the RSW also gave 54HP.
Does this mean it was actually better?
I think so!
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LucF



Nombre de messages : 110
Age : 76
Localisation : Pays Bas
Date d'inscription : 25/05/2011

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Icon_minitimeVen 22 Nov 2013 - 10:59

Absolutely Jan, there's no doubt about it. PVP is worst with 5.8% almost 0.9 hp less.
The load on the gearbox will be greater, so in other cases it may be interesting to do the reverse, consider the Aprilia 500twin.


Dernière édition par LucF le Ven 22 Nov 2013 - 13:46, édité 3 fois
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SB07



Nombre de messages : 52
Age : 40
Localisation : Goito (MN) Italy
Date d'inscription : 05/12/2010

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This is new IAME KZ 125 cylinder...[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 809262 
For me, is more similar at Aprilia.... lol! 

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Mic



Nombre de messages : 62
Localisation : Denmark
Date d'inscription : 12/02/2012

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Icon_minitimeVen 22 Nov 2013 - 18:37

LucF a écrit:
Absolutely Jan, there's no doubt about it. PVP is worst with 5.8% almost 0.9 hp less.
The load on the gearbox will be greater, so in other cases it may be interesting to do the reverse, consider the Aprilia 500twin.
Luc, the power loss on the PVP is higher due to faster spinning gearbox, but the torque load on the gears is lower because torque is directly releated to rpm. Same power with higher rpm = less torque.

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LucF



Nombre de messages : 110
Age : 76
Localisation : Pays Bas
Date d'inscription : 25/05/2011

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Mic a écrit:
LucF a écrit:
Absolutely Jan, there's no doubt about it. PVP is worst with 5.8% almost 0.9 hp less.
The load on the gearbox will be greater, so in other cases it may be interesting to do the reverse, consider the Aprilia 500twin.
Luc, the power loss on the PVP is higher due to faster spinning gearbox, but the torque load on the gears is lower because torque is directly releated to rpm. Same power with higher rpm = less torque.

Yes Mic, that is right.
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2301
Age : 71
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Icon_minitimeSam 23 Nov 2013 - 0:44

Jan Thiel a écrit:
....the RSW also gave 54HP. Does this mean it was actually better?
Maximum power values of the RSW and the RSA are virtually identical. But the RSA clearly has a better power curve.
For instance, at 11.000 rpm the RSA produces 6% more power than the RSW. This cannot be explained by the small difference in transmission efficiency.

The RSA really is a different engine, and not only with regard to the inlet flow. The exhaust pipe is different, the cylinder head with its two extra bolts is different, and so on. All these factors play together and I don't think it is possible to draw conclusions regarding the effect of one single factor like a difference in primary transmission ratios.
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brokedown



Nombre de messages : 151
Localisation : usa
Date d'inscription : 29/09/2013

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everybody happy holidays [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 771973 .  hi jan and frits. thnx again for sharing your knowledge its the best  i've seen anywhere.  what im trying to do is use logical thinking and apply it to other engines. right now i have several different engines im working on and this is one engine. what do you think of it or maybe i missed something and can make it even better ? left side is what is how i plan to change the transfer ports with epoxy. right side is standard from the factory. thnx again for anybody that gave real good information here  [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 241515 


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Mic



Nombre de messages : 62
Localisation : Denmark
Date d'inscription : 12/02/2012

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Frits Overmars a écrit:
Jan Thiel a écrit:
....the RSW also gave 54HP. Does this mean it was actually better?
Maximum power values of the RSW and the RSA are virtually identical. But the RSA clearly has a better power curve.
For instance, at 11.000 rpm the RSA produces 6% more power than the RSW. This cannot be explained by the small difference in transmission efficiency.

The RSA really is a different engine, and not only with regard to the inlet flow. The exhaust pipe is different, the cylinder head with its two extra bolts is different, and so on. All these factors play together and I don't think it is possible to draw conclusions regarding the effect of one single factor like a difference in primary transmission ratios.
I remember Jan writing the RSW were one time also tested with the APF cylinder and then it made the same 54hp as the RSA.

But of course there was still a lot of differences between them even with the same cylinders on them.

Would like to see Thijs finishing his dual side disc engine. Perfect intake flow and straight exhaust.
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Daniel A.



Nombre de messages : 55
Localisation : Germany
Date d'inscription : 20/02/2012

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brokedown a écrit:
everybody happy holidays [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 771973 .  hi jan and frits. thnx again for sharing your knowledge its the best  i've seen anywhere.  what im trying to do is use logical thinking and apply it to other engines. right now i have several different engines im working on and this is one engine. what do you think of it or maybe i missed something and can make it even better ? left side is what is how i plan to change the transfer ports with epoxy. right side is standard from the factory. thnx again for anybody that gave real good information here  [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 241515 
This change will work fine I think. But I'm not sure if one can trust epoxy permanent at such locations. What kind of epoxy do you use? (manufacturer)
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GrahamB

GrahamB

Nombre de messages : 3457
Age : 58
Localisation : Lyon
Date d'inscription : 19/08/2011

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Could someone expand on this gearbox efficiency question? Saying losses are proportional to rotational speed seems too simple: that would be true if the friction forces were constant, but it might be reasonable to suppose they are proportional to the torque... in which case it all cancels out. And greater torque might require wider or larger diameter cogs... [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 55116
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brokedown



Nombre de messages : 151
Localisation : usa
Date d'inscription : 29/09/2013

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Daniel A. a écrit:

This change will work fine I think. But I'm not sure if one can trust epoxy permanent at such locations. What kind of epoxy do you use? (manufacturer)
yes i think the change will work good. atleast alot better than what it is now. i dont think the sharp hooks in the corners is a good idea. besides maybe its not the best idea to have the B port pointing at the C port.  i think i will try the green stucco epoxy like jan mentioned. maybe ill try devcon also. really i dont have much epoxy experience so i dont know what is best
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Ian Harrison



Nombre de messages : 100
Localisation : United Kingdom
Date d'inscription : 28/08/2012

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Hi Guys

My thoughts are exactly the same as GrahamB regarding the primary drive ratio change. I believe the differences in power lost at the output shaft between the ratios listed would be very, very small (if anything). other considerations surrounding that selection might well have more significance.

Brokedown, For experimenting with port shapes we use Devcon F Aluminium Putty. It's certainly readily available in the USA, just "google" it. Be careful to check the use by date, don't accept any that has gone past, keep it in a cool reasonably constant temperature.

Thanks for the "holiday wishes", but I think "Thanksgiving" is a purely US holiday [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 2878 

Best Regards

Ian
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Dave Pearce



Nombre de messages : 195
Age : 64
Localisation : united kingdom
Date d'inscription : 12/05/2010

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Empty
MessageSujet: Devcon F   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Icon_minitimeDim 24 Nov 2013 - 10:22

Devcon F is certainly a fantastic substance and got me out of the shit on several occasions when I was racing TZ750 Sidecar's in the 80's. In the right situation it was a much better solution than welding.
Some might think it a bodge up but for the hard up National racer it was a life saver.[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 771973 
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http://info@tigcraft.com
LucF



Nombre de messages : 110
Age : 76
Localisation : Pays Bas
Date d'inscription : 25/05/2011

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GrahamB a écrit:
Could someone expand on this gearbox efficiency question? Saying losses are proportional to rotational speed seems too simple: that would be true if the friction forces were constant, but it might be reasonable to suppose they are proportional to the torque... in which case it all cancels out. And greater torque might require wider or larger diameter cogs... [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 55116
The frictions on the gearbox are indeed not constant so we express these in percentage of the power and not in hp.
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http://www.geocities.ws/lucfoekema/indexNL.html
brokedown



Nombre de messages : 151
Localisation : usa
Date d'inscription : 29/09/2013

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hey mates today from ebay i got the green stucco putty and devcon F putty. so i can try both kinds [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 771973 

let me ask one more question to anybody with methanol experience. i wont bore you with details but one engine i have uses methanol but i have a feeling the head geometry is not right. when cutting the head dimensions for methanol is there any general rules to follow that would atleast get it close to the ballpark, then after that i can use the cut and try method to find the very best results ? like what frits said about the 1% of stroke for the piston to head clearance. would that also apply to methanol ? do i also want the squish paralell with the piston ? width 50% of bore area ? i suspect the transition from squishband to combustion chamber should always have zero radius for all types of fuel. thnx guys if you can help a junior tuner like me [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 241515 
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2301
Age : 71
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

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Brokedown, my limited experience with methanol on a two-stroke is that you can keep the head 100% identical with a petrol head.
What I learned the hard way: do not try to correct a wet spark plug by jetting leaner when running on methanol. The engine will seize before the plug comes out dry.
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brokedown



Nombre de messages : 151
Localisation : usa
Date d'inscription : 29/09/2013

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before i converted my bike to methanol everybody said its real easy to tune but since ive been using the methanol ive found its not very easy to tune. but i dont have alot of experience with it yet so perhaps in more time i can figure it out. i remeber the first time i used it frits. accidentaly i had the carb floats upside down and it was pushing huge amounts of methanol into the cylinder (im using fuel pump) and would hardly run. there was maybe 1 gallon in the tank and when that ran out the engine went lean and immediatly i got about 10hp extra  [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 809262

also i didnt tune it for a dry plug. mostly i was looking at the base of the plug and if it was burning any of the plating off. that was by advice from other people but im not sure if thats the correct tuning procedure. anyways methanol seems rather strange. it shoots raw fuel out the pipe but still seems to run ok. perhaps because you put about 2x more fuel in the cylinder than gasoline ?
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2301
Age : 71
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

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brokedown a écrit:
... methanol seems rather strange. it shoots raw fuel out the pipe but still seems to run ok. perhaps because you put about 2x more fuel in the cylinder than gasoline ?
2,26 times as much, to be exact. Which means that you will need to pay attention to your complete fuel system:
tank ventilation, fuel cock flow, filter flow and, often forgotten, float valve seat diameter. And jetting, of course.
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Institute of TwoStrokes



Nombre de messages : 148
Localisation : Australie
Date d'inscription : 15/10/2010

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brokedown a écrit:
before i converted my bike to methanol everybody said its real easy to tune but since ive been using the methanol ive found its not very easy to tune. but i dont have alot of experience with it yet so perhaps in more time i can figure it out. i remeber the first time i used it frits. accidentaly i had the carb floats upside down and it was pushing huge amounts of methanol into the cylinder (im using fuel pump) and would hardly run. there was maybe 1 gallon in the tank and when that ran out the engine went lean and immediatly i got about 10hp extra  [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 809262

also i didnt tune it for a dry plug. mostly i was looking at the base of the plug and if it was burning any of the plating off. that was by advice from other people but im not sure if thats the correct tuning procedure. anyways methanol seems rather strange. it shoots raw fuel out the pipe but still seems to run ok. perhaps because you put about 2x more fuel in the cylinder than gasoline ?
Tuning for methanol seems to be just drill the main jet out to whatever small drill size is handy , emery the needle down and set the stator to full advance.lol! 

One thing that is VERY important with methanol is to give the engine a nice 'petrol wash' at the end of the day straight after the final race. Connect a small drink bottle of a rich petrol/oil mix and rev it and let it blubber away untill all that methanol is gone. Will be curtains for your engine internals if you let methanol stay in the cases/carburetor
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Mic



Nombre de messages : 62
Localisation : Denmark
Date d'inscription : 12/02/2012

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MessageSujet: Exhaust shape   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 Icon_minitimeSam 30 Nov 2013 - 10:25

Question for Jan and Frits

I can see the exhaust of the lower cylinder of the RSW/RSA250 has a straight section first and then a quite sharp bend.

Is this better than a long smooth bend? It looks like there is enough space for a smoother shape but perhaps it's important to keep the first section as straight as possible?

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brokedown



Nombre de messages : 151
Localisation : usa
Date d'inscription : 29/09/2013

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Frits Overmars a écrit:
brokedown a écrit:
... methanol seems rather strange. it shoots raw fuel out the pipe but still seems to run ok. perhaps because you put about 2x more fuel in the cylinder than gasoline ?
2,26 times as much, to be exact. Which means that you will need to pay attention to your complete fuel system:
tank ventilation, fuel cock flow, filter flow and, often forgotten, float valve seat diameter. And jetting, of course.
installing the fuel system was the easy part. getting the engine tuned has proved more difficult for me. im not sure of the ign curve but the stator is set to 16* BTDC. i have only advanced it a couple degrees so far. its winter now so next spring in warmer temperature ill tune it more. but in the meen time ill port a new cylinder from all the great info in this forum [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked) - Page 23 771973 

tank ventilation is enlarged to 3/8" (9.5mm) ID.
fuel valve is 3/8" (9.5mm) in and 5/16" (7.9mm) out.
high flow filter 3/8" (9.5mm) in/out
65 liter per hour fuel pump
48mm carb with 2 power jets
16:1 castor oil mix
i purge the full system with gas afterwards
this is my album for the sytem if you want to look    

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Dernière édition par brokedown le Sam 30 Nov 2013 - 21:23, édité 1 fois
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