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 [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)

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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2148
Age : 70
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Sam 23 Mar 2013 - 1:47

There was no wasted spark on the RSA.
What do you mean by 'indexing the plug'?
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wax



Nombre de messages : 60
Localisation : australia
Date d'inscription : 01/06/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Sam 23 Mar 2013 - 7:11

By aiming the side electrode of a spark plug towards the exhaust port on a two stroke jetski engine we used to get another 150 rpm , 1mph on a full throttle run.
It doesn't sound much but when your drag racing towards the first turn it was worth it. It was a back to back increase every time
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romeuh80



Nombre de messages : 102
Age : 29
Localisation : Leiria, Portugal
Date d'inscription : 15/10/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Sam 23 Mar 2013 - 17:17

wax a écrit:
By aiming the side electrode of a spark plug towards the exhaust port on a two stroke jetski engine we used to get another 150 rpm , 1mph on a full throttle run.
It doesn't sound much but when your drag racing towards the first turn it was worth it. It was a back to back increase every time


Really?
Why that should happen? Shouldn't the spark be at the center always?
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wax



Nombre de messages : 60
Localisation : australia
Date d'inscription : 01/06/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Sam 23 Mar 2013 - 22:51

yes it is, but the side electrode is not
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senso



Nombre de messages : 44
Localisation : Portugal
Date d'inscription : 08/11/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Dim 24 Mar 2013 - 17:11

And what is the root cause of the improvement?
Better plug cooling, or there is a better start of the combustion?
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wax



Nombre de messages : 60
Localisation : australia
Date d'inscription : 01/06/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Dim 24 Mar 2013 - 20:48

The root cause of the improvement well its hard to prove what causes it. Im thinking better combustion. but you cant deny the facts on a flat out run there was roughly 150 rpm and 1mph top speed gain up the start straight when your going for the hole shot. you can back to back it all the time and get the same results. Im actually quite shocked that it seems like a new thing to some people
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Daniel A.



Nombre de messages : 55
Localisation : Germany
Date d'inscription : 20/02/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Dim 24 Mar 2013 - 21:09

Could you make a little sketch please for better understanding? :)

Regards,
Daniel
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romeuh80



Nombre de messages : 102
Age : 29
Localisation : Leiria, Portugal
Date d'inscription : 15/10/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 1:30

I don't know if this was asked earlier, I am more or less certain that there is no gain, but I would like a hint from the experts.

Does covering the header of the exhaust with some isolating material have any benefit in performance?

[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image]
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Jan Thiel



Nombre de messages : 477
Age : 78
Localisation : Bangkok
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 3:23

romeuh80 a écrit:
I don't know if this was asked earlier, I am more or less certain that there is no gain, but I would like a hint from the experts.

Does covering the header of the exhaust with some isolating material have any benefit in performance?

[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image]

No, I do'nt think so.
But it helps to make the engine reach the same revs on the circuit as it does on the dyno.
And it could help to keep down crankcase temperature.
I would have liked to paint the exhaust with isolating paint.
Preferably on the inside!
Doing so might have made different exhaust dimensions necessary.
It would have been very interesting.
But I never had the time to do it, which I still regret!

Working at the dyno daily, the big-end was changed after about 220 tests.
Each test taking about 6 minutes.
And also the exhaust was cleaned at the inside, removing the carbon deposit.
After this it took about a week for the same maximum power to return.
And you also needed a richer carburation, because with a clean exhaust pipe the engine had more tendency to detonate.
The teams that went to the races always cleaned their exhaust pipes on the saturday evening, before the race.
I tried to convince them not to do this, but nobody believed me!
To a lesser degree the same thing happened with the dampers.
Filling them with new glass fiber always gave less power and more detonation, for about 3-4 days!
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Institute of TwoStrokes



Nombre de messages : 148
Localisation : Australie
Date d'inscription : 15/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 13:57

romeuh80 a écrit:
I don't know if this was asked earlier, I am more or less certain that there is no gain, but I would like a hint from the experts.


That's a pretty trick NX
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Paul Gane



Nombre de messages : 14
Age : 59
Localisation : London, England
Date d'inscription : 07/03/2013

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 18:16

A question for Jan and Frits, with all your knowledge on disc valve engines. How much of a power impovement could be made from a late Suzuki RG500 power valvfrom a curious 2-stroke nut. Thanks in advance. P.G.
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Paul Gane



Nombre de messages : 14
Age : 59
Localisation : London, England
Date d'inscription : 07/03/2013

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 18:22

sorry all, last post incomplete. That a Mk10 RG500 power valve motor, currently producing about 130 bhp.
Thank again.
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2148
Age : 70
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 19:27

Paul Gane a écrit:
A question for Jan and Frits, with all your knowledge on disc valve engines. How much of a power impovement could be made from a late Suzuki RG500 power valvfrom a curious 2-stroke nut. Thanks in advance. P.G.
That is an impossible question to anwer, Paul. I do not even know whether a Suzuki MK10 RG500 is a roadracer or a street bike, let alone what the tech specs look like.

If you plan to modify the original Suzuki parts, it would depend on your skills, which I have no idea of, and on the suitability of those parts: is there material where you need it, are they strong enough, etc.

If you have unlimited funds, you could fit carbs, disk valves, crankshafts, pistons, cylinders, heads, pipes and electronics from the Aprilia RSA and then it should be able to produce over 200 rear wheel HP. But the cooling would be grossly insufficient, the clutch and gearbox would probable not live very long, etc.
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Vagelis



Nombre de messages : 30
Localisation : Greece
Date d'inscription : 09/07/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 20:34

wax a écrit:
I asked this question on the kiwi biker forum but couldn't get an answer. On the rsa did you try running it with a wasted spark on the dyno and if so was there a gain to be had at all. I know on a two stroke there is gains to be had by indexing the plug to help reduce fouling of the plug. I am wondering the extra spark at bdc could help achieve the same thing

If my memory doesn't deceive me, Frits has said in the past that the 'gap' between the electrodes should face towards the inlet side -for regular plugs- in order for the fresh stream to scavenge the residuals from the area inbetween.
For racing type plugs, such as the RSA's, it should be placed looking either right or left (the front being the exhaust), for the same reason as above.

Frits, I hope it is not the other way around regarding the two plug types..


Spoiler:
 


Dernière édition par Vagelis le Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 22:00, édité 1 fois
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https://s736.photobucket.com/albums/xx5/Vag1-2/
Haufen



Nombre de messages : 55
Localisation : Allemagne
Date d'inscription : 23/12/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 21:31

Jan Thiel a écrit:

Working at the dyno daily, the big-end was changed after about 220 tests.
Each test taking about 6 minutes.
And also the exhaust was cleaned at the inside, removing the carbon deposit.
After this it took about a week for the same maximum power to return.
And you also needed a richer carburation, because with a clean exhaust pipe the engine had more tendency to detonate.
The teams that went to the races always cleaned their exhaust pipes on the saturday evening, before the race.
I tried to convince them not to do this, but nobody believed me!
To a lesser degree the same thing happened with the dampers.
Filling them with new glass fiber always gave less power and more detonation, for about 3-4 days!

Thanks for that Jan, very interesting! Do you remember how much power was down with the cleaned exhaust pipe? And did you try to build an exhaust pipe with slightly smaller internal diameters to have the same power with a clean exhaust?
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romeuh80



Nombre de messages : 102
Age : 29
Localisation : Leiria, Portugal
Date d'inscription : 15/10/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Lun 25 Mar 2013 - 23:47

Haufen a écrit:
Jan Thiel a écrit:

Working at the dyno daily, the big-end was changed after about 220 tests.
Each test taking about 6 minutes.
And also the exhaust was cleaned at the inside, removing the carbon deposit.
After this it took about a week for the same maximum power to return.
And you also needed a richer carburation, because with a clean exhaust pipe the engine had more tendency to detonate.
The teams that went to the races always cleaned their exhaust pipes on the saturday evening, before the race.
I tried to convince them not to do this, but nobody believed me!
To a lesser degree the same thing happened with the dampers.
Filling them with new glass fiber always gave less power and more detonation, for about 3-4 days!

Thanks for that Jan, very interesting! Do you remember how much power was down with the cleaned exhaust pipe? And did you try to build an exhaust pipe with slightly smaller internal diameters to have the same power with a clean exhaust?

Maybe a little carbon filling the "safe" spaces in the exhaust would help the effect? Or is nonsense lol!

I am testing tail pipe restrictors. I don't have a Dyno to test the different sizes. And I not sure of any difference, I was with ~21 baffle end, putted one 20mm restrictor, tested and I am not sure off any difference, carburation seems to be about the same, overev and power too....With 20,5 same happens.

I Know this was discussed a bit earlier in this topic, maybe I should post this in another topic. But I would like straight words from everyone with experience, not just frits or Jan on what happens to power curve, carburation, etc when changing only this restrictor.

Would it only change the peak power upper a bit, would it give more power?
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senso



Nombre de messages : 44
Localisation : Portugal
Date d'inscription : 08/11/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Mar 26 Mar 2013 - 0:26

About linning the exterior of the exhaust it insulating materials, be it paint or aluminium tape, perhaps ceramic coating like is used in four stroke after market exhaust lines might be a nice thing to try/test, it works wonders in the four bangers..
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GrahamB

GrahamB

Nombre de messages : 3457
Age : 57
Localisation : Lyon
Date d'inscription : 19/08/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Mar 26 Mar 2013 - 0:44

wax a écrit:
On the rsa did you try running it with a wasted spark
Wasted spark on a two stroke? What would that be, firing both plugs together on a 180° twin?
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wax



Nombre de messages : 60
Localisation : australia
Date d'inscription : 01/06/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Mar 26 Mar 2013 - 8:09

GrahamB a écrit:
wax a écrit:
On the rsa did you try running it with a wasted spark
Wasted spark on a two stroke? What would that be, firing both plugs together on a 180° twin?
firing the spark plug at bdc 180 degrees apart ???
Like they do on two stroke jetski engines
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XpTpSMTT



Nombre de messages : 37
Localisation : Hellas
Date d'inscription : 08/02/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Mar 26 Mar 2013 - 10:28

Regarding crankcase volume,will making it as small as possible make it more efficient as a pump
and as large as possible more like a resonator?relatively speaking.
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Jan Thiel



Nombre de messages : 477
Age : 78
Localisation : Bangkok
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Mar 26 Mar 2013 - 10:34

Haufen a écrit:
Jan Thiel a écrit:

Working at the dyno daily, the big-end was changed after about 220 tests.
Each test taking about 6 minutes.
And also the exhaust was cleaned at the inside, removing the carbon deposit.
After this it took about a week for the same maximum power to return.
And you also needed a richer carburation, because with a clean exhaust pipe the engine had more tendency to detonate.
The teams that went to the races always cleaned their exhaust pipes on the saturday evening, before the race.
I tried to convince them not to do this, but nobody believed me!
To a lesser degree the same thing happened with the dampers.
Filling them with new glass fiber always gave less power and more detonation, for about 3-4 days!

Thanks for that Jan, very interesting! Do you remember how much power was down with the cleaned exhaust pipe? And did you try to build an exhaust pipe with slightly smaller internal diameters to have the same power with a clean exhaust?

About 0,5 HP.
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2148
Age : 70
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Mar 26 Mar 2013 - 11:07

XpTpSMTT a écrit:
Regarding crankcase volume,will making it as small as possible make it more efficient as a pump and as large as possible more like a resonator?relatively speaking.
Yes.
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husaberger



Nombre de messages : 14
Localisation : New Zealand
Date d'inscription : 13/12/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Mar 26 Mar 2013 - 11:38

Jan Thiel a écrit:



And also the exhaust was cleaned at the inside, removing the carbon deposit.
After this it took about a week for the same maximum power to return.
And you also needed a richer carburation, because with a clean exhaust pipe the engine had more tendency to detonate.
The teams that went to the races always cleaned their exhaust pipes on the saturday evening, before the race.
I tried to convince them not to do this, but nobody believed me!
Likely a misplaced theory on my behalf, but wouldn't the carbon accumulate on the areas of lower gas flow and velocity, at least at first?

Also how did the works Aprilia team clean its exhausts.
The apprentice technician and a gas torch outside in the time honored fashion?


Dernière édition par husaberger le Jeu 28 Mar 2013 - 4:08, édité 1 fois
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Sanderhoutman



Nombre de messages : 51
Localisation : netherlands
Date d'inscription : 23/12/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Mer 27 Mar 2013 - 14:13

I think it was once mentioned that they used a unraveled steel wire cable. It was inserted into the exhaust and twisted round. Manualy or mechanical i don't know but it got all out. Sort of like a steel brush i would say. Works like a charm annyway.
The apprentice method is more fun though

Sander
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2148
Age : 70
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 3) (Locked)   Mer 27 Mar 2013 - 14:36

Sanderhoutman a écrit:

I think it was once mentioned that they used a unraveled steel wire cable. It was inserted into the exhaust and twisted round. The apprentice method is more fun though.
Not for the apprentice, nor for anybody in the vicinity without breathing equipment No.
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