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AuteurMessage
Emmanuel Laurentz

Emmanuel Laurentz

Nombre de messages : 4203
Age : 59
Localisation : PACA
Date d'inscription : 07/12/2009

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMar 26 Fév 2013 - 14:10

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 398384 j'y vais tout de suite .
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Institute of TwoStrokes



Nombre de messages : 148
Localisation : Australie
Date d'inscription : 15/10/2010

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
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Emmanuel Laurentz a écrit:
Tu sais les valeurs sont indiqués tel 86/136 (pour l'exemple), donc sur le moteur ci dessus j'ai effectivement 86° depuis le PMH jusqu’à la fermeture de l'admition ok mais que représente cet angle de 136° et à partir de quand ?

J'ai lu dès la page 24 et suivantes des valeurs de 95/150.

Q: 95° avant fermeture admission à partir du PMH ?
Q: 150° à partir de quand ?


ouvrir 150° avant PMH
fermer 95° apres PMH

Jarno lol! lol! lol!
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Emmanuel Laurentz

Emmanuel Laurentz

Nombre de messages : 4203
Age : 59
Localisation : PACA
Date d'inscription : 07/12/2009

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Merci [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 980796
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motoholic71



Nombre de messages : 53
Age : 48
Localisation : Lisbon
Date d'inscription : 19/01/2013

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MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMar 26 Fév 2013 - 14:48

senso a écrit:
I'm so sorry for calling you the wrong name, I will not do it again.

I understand, I need to integrate the area, maths it not really my speciality but I think I can come up with the right numbers, I will open a post in the Technique part of the forum when I have more data and crazy ideas, so to not spam this topic, but thanks for the advices, its all that I need to keep me going in the right direction.
In the case of the italkit cylinder it is a W shaped exhaust port, that might be fun to integrate and arrive to the correct values.

Best regards Mr. Frits [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 771973

I believe you can find a formula either in Bell &/or Blair publications,with described process to tackle odd port shapes and rod length is necessary for calc. I'll post if I find it,very busy today,might b easier?
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GrahamB

GrahamB

Nombre de messages : 3457
Age : 57
Localisation : Lyon
Date d'inscription : 19/08/2011

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MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMar 26 Fév 2013 - 17:25

I think it's actually a double integral, since you need to sum up over angle the area of port open, which is itself the integral of the width of the port over the height...ie

Int(from A to B) [ Int(from h(t) to H) W(y) dy ] (dh/dt) dt

where W(y) is the width of the port at height y above BDC,
h(t) is the height of the piston above BDC at t° after BDC,

h(t)=s*(1-cos(t)) + sqrt(r²-s²*sin²(t)) -r,

where r is rod length and s=stroke/2

and (dh/dt) is the piston speed in mm/degree at a given crank angle, ie the derivative of the expression above,

(dh/dt)(t)=s*sin(t) - [s²*sin(t)*cos(t) / sqrt(r²-s²*sin²(t)) ]

Erk!

Easiest way would be to make up a spreadsheet allowing you to enter the port width at 1mm or 1/2mm steps...
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motoholic71



Nombre de messages : 53
Age : 48
Localisation : Lisbon
Date d'inscription : 19/01/2013

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[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 241515 True. Either way seems 1st step should be to roll some mil graph paper and scrib the ports shape
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senso



Nombre de messages : 44
Localisation : Portugal
Date d'inscription : 08/11/2011

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Given the odd W shape of the exhaust port, I will make a port-map of the cylinder, then I will transfer it to some millimetre graphing paper and spent half a day counting little 1mm^2 squares, for some reason I have read the Jennings book some years ago and I got the impression that the time areas where calculated just by multiplying some values, probably I'm mistaken.

I will try also to get some points into Matlab and let it have all the fun doing the dual integral, or pull my hair off trying(I have a love-hate relation with Matlab.)

Thanks for the tips!

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Hakkelaar



Nombre de messages : 9
Localisation : The Netherlands
Date d'inscription : 03/02/2011

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeMer 27 Fév 2013 - 23:54

Hi Senso,

In Matlab I would creatie a Riemann Sum (Google: Riemann Sum Matlab). Easy to program and if the internationale steps are small enough, the result will be accurate enough for this application.

Cheers, Jacob
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Hakkelaar



Nombre de messages : 9
Localisation : The Netherlands
Date d'inscription : 03/02/2011

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
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I meant integration steps...

D*mn iPhone...
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GrahamB

GrahamB

Nombre de messages : 3457
Age : 57
Localisation : Lyon
Date d'inscription : 19/08/2011

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GrahamB a écrit:

(dh/dt)(t)=s*sin(t) - [s²*sin(t)*cos(t) / sqrt(r²-s²*sin²(t)) ]

Oops... forgot that I was working in degrees, not radians. The above should be multiplied by Pi/180...
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Institute of TwoStrokes



Nombre de messages : 148
Localisation : Australie
Date d'inscription : 15/10/2010

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[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image]
With a 41.5mm carb we are going to try and crack the 50HP barrier with this.
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Vagelis



Nombre de messages : 30
Localisation : Greece
Date d'inscription : 09/07/2011

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeSam 9 Mar 2013 - 2:06

Frits, would this pipe be an Aprilia pipe??

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I came upon it while reading this paper 'Correlations for Wiebe function parameters for combustion simulation in two-stroke small engines'
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It looks very much like the RSA pipe design! Expect the first 'flange' part that is missing -they test different lengths.
Test engine is an 125cc rotary valve, 83°ex-113°tfr, which looks weird -maybe it's a honda(??) or kart..
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https://s736.photobucket.com/albums/xx5/Vag1-2/
Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2212
Age : 71
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeSam 9 Mar 2013 - 13:46

Vagelis a écrit:
Frits, would this pipe be an Aprilia pipe?.....It looks very much like the RSA pipe design!
It does, but it looks even more like an older Aprilia pipe, designated Tubo 55.
I suppose someone has hand-measured a Tubo-55 because the dimensions differ in some places, but only very slightly.
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romeuh80



Nombre de messages : 102
Age : 29
Localisation : Leiria, Portugal
Date d'inscription : 15/10/2011

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeSam 9 Mar 2013 - 15:01

Frits Overmars a écrit:
Vagelis a écrit:
Frits, would this pipe be an Aprilia pipe?.....It looks very much like the RSA pipe design!
It does, but it looks even more like an older Aprilia pipe, designated Tubo 55.
I suppose someone has hand-measured a Tubo-55 because the dimensions differ in some places, but only very slightly.
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I wonder if those tiny differences could be felt on dyno...
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Vagelis



Nombre de messages : 30
Localisation : Greece
Date d'inscription : 09/07/2011

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeSam 9 Mar 2013 - 15:25

I see... Thanks for the schematic Frits!

About the A-tubo designs (21, 102 and now 55).. Were they part of a 100+ pipe testing procedure over Jan's years at Aprilia? Or they were code named after something?
There are just minor changes between these pipes.
It would be interesting to hear about the pipe development story, if you or Jan have some spare time (and wish to spare it here). :)

I take the liberty to post all three designs together. Hope you don't mind, since they were already in public:

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https://s736.photobucket.com/albums/xx5/Vag1-2/
Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2212
Age : 71
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

[GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Empty
MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked)   [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 2) (Locked) - Page 40 Icon_minitimeSam 9 Mar 2013 - 17:09

Vagelis a écrit:
About the A-tubo designs (21, 102 and now 55).. Were they part of a 100+ pipe testing procedure over Jan's years at Aprilia? Or they were code named after something?
Just a matter of evolution: after tubo # 1 came tubo #2, and so on.
Citation :
I take the liberty to post all three designs together. Hope you don't mind, since they were already in public
No problem.




Marc :
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