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 [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine

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ROSSIGRM

ROSSIGRM

Nombre de messages : 16
Localisation : PIACENZA ITALY
Date d'inscription : 01/02/2011

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MessageSujet: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 0:26

For introduce myself as one of the new member of this "fantastic" forum: my name is Giuseppe Rossi, (sorry not VALENTINO), I produce in a small workshop racing engine for boat.
The tecnology that I'm using is a "bad copy" of the Aprilia
Many thanks to Mr. MARC and to the big"minds " wich are helping a lot with big informations!!
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Marc
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Marc

Nombre de messages : 27743
Age : 60
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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 0:42

Fantastic RossiGRM!

[Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 241515

You are going to tell us a lot more on your work but, please, let me create for you your own topic.

[Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 771973

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Jarno

Jarno

Nombre de messages : 8661
Localisation : Imatra sur Seine
Date d'inscription : 10/11/2009

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 7:02

[Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 263463
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Emmanuel Laurentz

Emmanuel Laurentz

Nombre de messages : 4156
Age : 59
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Date d'inscription : 07/12/2009

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 11:23

[Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 263463
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fredjaw

fredjaw

Nombre de messages : 215
Age : 60
Localisation : Somme
Date d'inscription : 16/07/2010

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 13:16

Welcome Guiseppe !

Congratulations for so nice work !

Can you explain us how it is used (Boats ? In Water ? Aaarrrgggghhh !).

Fred
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2176
Age : 70
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 13:41

Ciao Giuseppe, benvenuto qui.
Your variable exhaust pipe looks very interesting. It also raises several questions and I hope you are willing to answer one or two of those.
Over what length do you move the expansion pipe and what kind of energy do you use for this movement (battery power, pipe pressure?) And how do you seal the two sliding tubes without causing too much friction?
Could you show us some pictures of the engine mounted in a boat?
Grazie in anticipo,
Frits
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superkart

superkart

Nombre de messages : 2015
Age : 39
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Date d'inscription : 20/01/2010

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 14:09

your variable exhaust pipe is "manual" same in kart 100cc.. you choose the longuer for torque or power preference ..??

in kart we have different "joint spiral" for wet or dry condition
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Jarno

Jarno

Nombre de messages : 8661
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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 14:26

Quelques photos du GRM 500/4...

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Mi piacerebbe molto di sentire questo motore...

[Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 771973 [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 241515 [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 771973
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ROSSIGRM

ROSSIGRM

Nombre de messages : 16
Localisation : PIACENZA ITALY
Date d'inscription : 01/02/2011

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 14:50

Mr. Frits, the sliding pipes is a very old project, I don't know who was the first one, I learned from my "KING TEACHER KONIG" from Germany.
The pipes slide 12.5/ 13 centimeter, it help for have a good torque at 9500 rpm with pipes out and allow to go up to 13000/13300 with the pipes close.
The driver use the pipes by "feeling" with the right leg in laydown boat type, or the left leg in 500 category where the boat is a catamaran and the driver is seated.
The pipe have a 0.4 mm clearence between elbow and sliding section: I never used fixed pipes, so I not have experience about lost of gas exaust pressure.
I remind that Cagiva 500 bike made years ago some test with sliding pipes: on bike is more complicate!!
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Marc
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Marc

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 15:50

[Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 241515 [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 241515 [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 241515

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fredjaw

fredjaw

Nombre de messages : 215
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Date d'inscription : 16/07/2010

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 17:09

C'est beau !
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Yonel

Yonel

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Date d'inscription : 08/09/2009

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 20:31

finalement, c'est bien les bateau... [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 809262

[Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 263463 signore [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 980796
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fasty

fasty

Nombre de messages : 647
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Localisation : Toulouse
Date d'inscription : 01/12/2010

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeJeu 10 Fév 2011 - 22:09

Pff sacré engin [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 241515
Je serais curieux de savoir quelles sont les perfs du 500....
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

Nombre de messages : 2176
Age : 70
Localisation : Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 0:24

Giuseppe grazie. È impressionante!
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Stephane

Stephane

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 6:02

is it forbidden to use a programmable ignition (ignitech f.e) where you could use an YPVS servo to drive your exhaust lenght ?

it 'd be more accurate and the pilot won't have to do the job :idea:

13 cm of sliding : that seem to be a lot I.M.O
as it's on an engine for boats, i suppose thaht your working with lower temp of exh gas than on a track bike, so you must also have longer exh system i suppose

wouldn't it be easier to have a classic exh system but an exh valve ?
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Seb4LO

Seb4LO

Nombre de messages : 2605
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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 8:25

looks like the pipes vibes the same way the engine does ( rigid on the low end propeller )

that VERY bad for performances

Same as stephane , i would use an YPVS style engine to drive the pipe sliding .....

and still same as stephane = 12.5 13 Cm is HUGE Shocked

Do you use shared low end volume for opposite cylinders ?
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 12:09

Stephane a écrit:
is it forbidden to use a programmable ignition (ignitech f.e) where you could use an YPVS servo to drive your exhaust lenght ?
it 'd be more accurate and the pilot won't have to do the job :idea:
13 cm of sliding : that seem to be a lot I.M.O
as it's on an engine for boats, i suppose thaht your working with lower temp of exh gas than on a track bike, so you must also have longer exh system i suppose
wouldn't it be easier to have a classic exh system but an exh valve ?
A servo-control would certainly make it easier for the pilot, but I do not think an YPVS-servo can move four pipes quickly enough against the exhaust gas pressure, estimated at about 0,3 bar in this engine. And if the servo were strong enough, it would require a heavy battery..
130 mm of sliding is about 17% of the normal pipe length; it will give about 2000 rpm extra at the bottom of the power band, and you really need that kind of power because of the propeller characteristics.
I had the same experience with a racing airplane: you need a variable pitch propeller (not allowed under the regulations) or a gearbox (on a plane! Well, at least you will not need reverse...) or a variable exhaust (pipe or powervalve).
A powervalve does not really give you real resonance power; it just prevents the pipe pulses from completely messing up the power curve at low revs. I expect a sliding pipe will make more low-down power. But I would take great care in making sure that there are no leaks at the joints.
SEB4LO a écrit:
Do you use shared low end volume for opposite cylinders ?
That would have been my next question Wink


Dernière édition par Frits Overmars le Ven 11 Fév 2011 - 12:25, édité 1 fois
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Toop



Nombre de messages : 3494
Age : 19
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Date d'inscription : 02/01/2010

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 12:16

perhaps, a similar RAVE 2 can working well , no ?
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ROSSIGRM

ROSSIGRM

Nombre de messages : 16
Localisation : PIACENZA ITALY
Date d'inscription : 01/02/2011

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 13:20

"Do you use shared low end volume for opposite cylinders " : please explain me better, my english is very small....
the engine run with methanol, by the rules we can use only that, the temperature on the exaust with the sensor in the photo position,is about 400/420 C° for the straight run, and about 310 for the turn boa. The electrical sistem for slide the pipes will be the next step, I hope to be able to test the first one before the 2011 racing season that start in May. My friend for the ignition is working on a control box and a wiper glass electric engine from cars....we need a force of about 3 kg for the 125 engine one pipe.[img][Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien][/img]
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Frits Overmars

Frits Overmars

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 13:37

ROSSIGRM a écrit:
"Do you use shared low end volume for opposite cylinders " : please explain me better, my english is very small....
SEB4LO (ed io) vorremo sapere se i volumi carter di due cilindri contrapposti sono comuni o separati.
Spero che adesso mi capisci, Giuseppe. Se non, allora si può tentare in tedesco o olandese Wink.

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ciccio24



Nombre de messages : 3
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Date d'inscription : 01/02/2011

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 14:21

fOR all man. no know.. motorsport boat racing
giuseppe rossi onboard camera.... [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 241515

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Jarno

Jarno

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 14:41

Grazie Ciccio ! [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 771973

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gau



Nombre de messages : 2
Localisation : Italy
Date d'inscription : 09/01/2011

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 15:07

Hello everybody
I'm an Italian guy and this is my first post.

Apropos sliding pipes:
In Uk a lambretta's tuner named Kegra made a pneumatic system for change pipe length in his
speed record lambretta, he called his system KPS:
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I don't have informations about what kind of "logic" he used in this system, probably a pressure valve on the handlebars...

Giuseppe: Is possible to see a power/torque curve of this kind of engine?

Regards.

p.s:Mr Overmars, your italian is fine! [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine 771973
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Dtenney



Nombre de messages : 16
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Date d'inscription : 11/02/2011

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MessageSujet: GRM Rossi   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 15:25

I am new to this site but have been captivated by what is going on here. This is the best echenge of 2 strke information that I have ever seen. It is reall exciting stuff. My father was very involved in 2 cycle engine development in the US and I also am very interested in 2 cycle motors. I currently race hydroplanes with a motor built by Mr. Rossi.

For those of you that do not know Giusseppe, he is a boat racing legend and many time world champion and is truly a wondeful person. What is amazing is that he builds 125,175,250,350,500 and 700cc race motors with almost no help in his shop it Italy. His good work helps keep the sport of hydroplane racing alive.

The sliding pipe used on the motors is very important. First it helps us get the boat on plane. When the prop gains traction in the water the pipe needs to be moved to the longest postiion. Then it can gradually be shortened as the boat gains speed. On the race course we run with wide open throttle all the time and control speed by varying the length of the pipe. We enter the turn full throttle and lengthen the pipe as needed as the increased drag from turning creates load on the engine. In addition we move the motor up and down as we drive. The motor is in the highest position on the straightaways and is in the lower position thru the turn. This is needed because the boats pack enough air under the back that they wil spin out in the turn if there is not enough gearcase skeg in the water.

For those of you that have driven karts with sliding pipes , you know that there is a lot of feel needed to pull the pipe at the proper rate. If you pull too fast the motor slows down as the pipe is too short for the given RPM.

Many years ago we developed an automatic pipe puller for a kart engine. It was pneumatically operated and actuated by a series of RPM switches. It worked great on the dyno but never worked well on the kart...I was always faster pulling the pipe manually. Given the electronics available today I think an electronic pipe pulling system has a much better chance of working well for boat racing.

Having said that, I think that it would be best if we could run with the pipe in the shortest position all the way around the race cousrse. That would allow for a very good seal and minimize laekage and maximize power. For those that spend time on a dyno, you know that a leaky header has a negative effect on performance. The best way to do achieve this could be with a 2-3 speed gearbox that would allow the engine to stay in the RPM range dictated by the fixed pipe length.

We have built a 125cc rotary valve motor with the an Aprilia Cylinder provided by Riley Willey. In addition we are also building a reed valve version at the moment.

And beacuse of the Forum we are building a 24/7 cylinder...that was an eye opener. I will try to post pictures.




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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitimeVen 11 Fév 2011 - 15:32

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MessageSujet: Re: [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine   [Technique] RossiGRM 2strokes boat engine Icon_minitime

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