Qui est en ligne ?  Il y a en tout 22 utilisateurs en ligne :: 0 Enregistré, 0 Invisible et 22 Invités :: 2 Moteurs de recherche
Aucun
Le record du nombre d'utilisateurs en ligne est de 294 le Lun 18 Nov 2019  20:11

Derniers sujets  » [SORTIES] Salon du 2 roues à Lyon 13 au 16 février 2020Hier à 23:41 par offen 88» [MotoGP] Valentino Rossi, aujourd'hui...Hier à 23:14 par thierysp» [GP] Johann ZarcoHier à 22:17 par carlovitch1» [Oldies] Quizz??????Hier à 21:31 par Adco» [Oldies] Malheureusement, ils sont partis...Hier à 21:18 par santi» Albi perd l'homologation moto pour 2020.Hier à 20:35 par bartau» [Moto2] NARD Ultra 6Hier à 13:23 par EDOUARD Jean» [MotoGP] GP 2019 / 20 , infos , nouveautés , résultats des tests , potins et ....Hier à 13:21 par EDOUARD Jean» [Oldies] Les Suzuki 500 RG ( Part 2 )Hier à 9:08 par EDOUARD Jean» [Oldies] Motocistes d'époqueDim 16 Fév 2020  19:22 par jicel» 125 Honda compéclient 1969 et 2018 : estce bien la même ?Dim 16 Fév 2020  18:10 par phcontant» [Oldies] Endurance Bol d'Or 1977 Le MansDim 16 Fév 2020  11:47 par Le Xav» [Techniques] Ça m’intéresse, composites et polymèresDim 16 Fév 2020  6:42 par fredomono» [Technique châssis] Listing modèles de suspension AVSam 15 Fév 2020  20:33 par spyderman 32» [Sorties] Calendrier 2020 des manifestations, roulages,....Sam 15 Fév 2020  20:08 par grouniache» [2 stroke] Et celui la ? (Astier)Sam 15 Fév 2020  16:30 par solex27» [Oldies] C'était le bon temps...Sam 15 Fév 2020  7:47 par PLP» Café Racer 800 DR couleur caféVen 14 Fév 2020  19:22 par Dialmax» Salon Auto Moto Rétro Collection à Nîmes du 29février2020 au 01mars2020Ven 14 Fév 2020  10:47 par janpol84» [Oldies] Honda 6Jeu 13 Fév 2020  23:06 par DidierF» [Oldies] Cote LapizeJeu 13 Fév 2020  21:04 par Mestre» [Oldies] Angel Nieto Mike Hailwood ( Part5 )Jeu 13 Fév 2020  19:29 par philwood» [Oldies] Côte de Méru 1973Jeu 13 Fév 2020  18:17 par charly7728» [ Oldies ] Jarno Saarinen, la star qui a revolutionné le pilotage (Part 5)Jeu 13 Fév 2020  17:26 par singleton560» [Oldies] KÖNIG, une histoire peu connue...Jeu 13 Fév 2020  12:03 par sologne» [ Oldies ] Trophée du Million, MagnyCours 1977Jeu 13 Fév 2020  10:40 par dulas frederic» [Oldies] MBA 125Mer 12 Fév 2020  20:23 par yves kerlo» [Oldies] La coupe KawasakiMer 12 Fév 2020  14:30 par raspoutine» Bourg en Bresse 1970Mer 12 Fév 2020  14:03 par DidierF» [Oldies] Charade 1974Mer 12 Fév 2020  13:25 par guitoo prod 
  [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked)  
 
Auteur  Message 

Mic
Nombre de messages : 62 Localisation : Denmark Date d'inscription : 12/02/2012
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Sam 26 Mai 2012  22:52  
 Brake Mean Effective Pressure
The definition of BMEP is: the average (mean) pressure which, if imposed on the pistons uniformly from the top to the bottom of each power stroke, would produce the measured (brake) power output.
A 2012 Yamaha R6 has a BMEP of 13,8bar.
A Ferrari 458 Italia 15,1bar.

   Mic
Nombre de messages : 62 Localisation : Denmark Date d'inscription : 12/02/2012
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Sam 26 Mai 2012  23:04  
 Frits I found this one: Formula 3 engine from VW. 1997ccm and 250nm giving 15,73bar. [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]They run low rpm's because of the small restrictor and this gives an impressive torque on a 2L engine. 4 stroke isn't that bad:) 
   Frits Overmars
Nombre de messages : 2285 Age : 71 Localisation : Raalte, Holland Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Dim 27 Mai 2012  0:17  
  Mic a écrit:
 If we use a 5% transmision loss on the RSA we get 31nm ( and 56,5hp ) this gives a BMEP of 15,6 bar.
Transmission losses are in the region of 5% per transmission step. From the crankshaft to the primary gearbox shaft you loose 5% of the crankshaft power. In the gearbox you loose another 5% of the input. So the 54 hp measured at the secondary gearbox shaft, was 95%*95% of crankshaft hp; crankshaft hp was thus 59,8 hp. But maximum BMEP is not produced at max.power rpm; it is produced at max.torque rpm. Hence the BMEP of 17 bar for the Aprilia RSA125. 4stroke isn't that good . 
   Mic
Nombre de messages : 62 Localisation : Denmark Date d'inscription : 12/02/2012
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Dim 27 Mai 2012  7:57  
  Frits Overmars a écrit:
 Mic a écrit:
 If we use a 5% transmision loss on the RSA we get 31nm ( and 56,5hp ) this gives a BMEP of 15,6 bar.
Transmission losses are in the region of 5% per transmission step. From the crankshaft to the primary gearbox shaft you loose 5% of the crankshaft power. In the gearbox you loose another 5% of the input. So the 54 hp measured at the secondary gearbox shaft, was 95%*95% of crankshaft hp; crankshaft hp was thus 59,8 hp.
But maximum BMEP is not produced at max.power rpm; it is produced at max.torque rpm. Hence the BMEP of 17 bar for the Aprilia RSA125. 4stroke isn't that good . Max torque at outputshaft was 29,52nm @12517rpm and max power 53,6hp @13007rpm. With 2 times 5% transmition loss this would turn into 32,7nm and 59,4hp giving a BMEP of 16,4bar. But 59,4hp sounds very high. I seems to remember having read that Jan Thiel said they reached a max of 56,5hp ( crankshaft power ) at Aprilia. Was the engine further enhanced after his retirement? 
   Jan Thiel
Nombre de messages : 501 Age : 79 Localisation : Bangkok Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Dim 27 Mai 2012  11:02  
 I never talk about crankshaft HP as I have no means to MEASURE them! We measured the power at the gearbox output. How can some people be so sure about transmission loss without measuring it? Once we did a test with a different primary drive, the gearbox turning faster. We lost 0,5 HP
Many people talk about these 'crankshaft HP' because it looks better. I think only people developing snowmobiles actually measure them! 
   Mic
Nombre de messages : 62 Localisation : Denmark Date d'inscription : 12/02/2012
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Dim 27 Mai 2012  11:18  
 Sorry my mistake.
Can't a dyno bench measure negative values? Just pull the clutch after max rpm and then let the dyno turn the gearbox and measure the negative torque required. Of course this will get you the gearbox loss and not also the primary drive. So in the end we would still be guessing.
In that case the 17bar sounds correct.
Interesting if the highest NA 4 stroke BMEP in fact is the low reving Formula 3 engine. I can't think of any other with a higher value. 
   Frits Overmars
Nombre de messages : 2285 Age : 71 Localisation : Raalte, Holland Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Dim 27 Mai 2012  12:47  
  Jan Thiel a écrit:
 I never talk about crankshaft HP as I have no means to MEASURE them!
I fully agree, Jan. I also prefer to talk only about measured values. But when calculating the mean effective pressure in the cylinder, by definition you must base the calculation on crankshaft power.  Mic a écrit:
 Can't a dyno bench measure negative values? Just pull the clutch after max rpm and then let the dyno turn the gearbox and measure the negative torque required. Of course this will get you the gearbox loss and not also the primary drive. So in the end we would still be guessing.
Worse than that, Mic. The gearbox losses mainly consist of friction between the gears, which is a percentage of the transmitted power. Once you remove the engine power, this transmitted power is no longer present and the friction loss will be much smaller. And you simply cannot measure a power, neither positive nor negative, that is not present. 
   Brian Callahan
Nombre de messages : 19 Localisation : San Diego, USA Date d'inscription : 14/05/2012
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Dim 27 Mai 2012  23:16  
  Frits Overmars a écrit:
 With leaded fuel the compression ratio was 19,5; nowadays it is about 15.
Frits that is geometric compression ratio not trapped compression ratio, right? Wow, only 65 bar peak cylinder pressure? I was expecting you to say something like 120 or 130 bar, especially with 2 bar trapping pressure and 17 bar BMEP. I thought I remembered Paul McEntee telling me he measured typically 100–110 bar on a GP engine at a time when BMEP was only 12 bar and trapping pressure was more like 1.6 to 1.8 bar. 
   Frits Overmars
Nombre de messages : 2285 Age : 71 Localisation : Raalte, Holland Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Lun 28 Mai 2012  0:46  
 Yes, that is geometric compression ratio, Brian. I find trapped compression ratio an unworkable concept. Moreover if you know an engine's trapped ratio, you still know nothing; you also need information about the exhaust port and even about the behaviour of an exhaust power valve. 
   Howard Gifford
Nombre de messages : 139 Age : 63 Localisation : Ottawa Canada Date d'inscription : 01/05/2012
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Ven 1 Juin 2012  14:52  
 I found this article about BMEP
Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP) is another very effective yardstick for comparing the performance of an engine of a given type to another of the same type, and for evaluating the reasonableness of performance claims or requirements.
The definition of BMEP is: the average (mean) pressure which, if imposed on the pistons uniformly from the top to the bottom of each power stroke, would produce the measured (brake) power output.
Note that BMEP is purely theoretical and has nothing to do with actual cylinder pressures. It is simply a tool to evaluate the efficiency of a given engine at producing torque from a given displacement..
If you work through the derivation arithmetic (presented at the bottom of this page), you find that BMEP is simply a multiple of the torque per cubic inch of displacement. In fact, many talented people in the engine design and developmeny business currently use torquepercubic inch instead of BMEP, thereby avoiding that tedious multiplication.
A torque output of 1.0 lbft per cubic inch of displacement in a 4stroke engine equals a BMEP of 150.8 psi. In a 2stroke engine, that same 1.0 lbft of torque per cubic inch is a BMEP of 75.4 psi.
(The discussion on the remainder of this page is with respect to fourstroke engines, but it applies equally to two stroke engines if you simply substitute 75.4 everywhere you see 150.8)
If you know the torque and displacement of an engine, a very practical way to calculate BMEP is:
BMEP (psi) = 150.8 x TORQUE (lbft) / DISPLACEMENT (ci)
(Equation 8a, 4Stroke Engine)
BMEP (psi) = 75.4 x TORQUE (lbft) / DISPLACEMENT (ci)
(Equation 8b, 2Stroke Engine)
(IF you prefer pressure readings in Bar rather than PSI, simply divide PSI by 14.5)
(IF you are interested in the derivation of those relationships, it is explained at the bottom of this page.)
This tool is extremely handy to evaluate the performance which is claimed for any particular engine. For example, the 200 HP IO360 (360 CID) and 300 HP IO540 (540 CID) Lycomings make their rated power at 2700 RPM. At that RPM, the rated power requires 389 lbft and 584 lbft of torque respectively. (If you don't understand that calculation, CLICK HERE)
From those torque values, it is easy to see (from Equation 8a above) that both engines operate at a BMEP of about 163 PSI (12.25 bar, or 1.08 lbft of torque per cubic inch) at peak power. The BMEP at peak torque is slightly greater.
For a longlife, naturallyaspirated, SI (spark ignition) gasolinefueled, twovalvepercylinder, pushrod engine, a BMEP over 210 PSI (14.5 bar) is difficult to achieve and requires a serious development program and very specialized components.
It is worthwhile to note that a contemporary, normallyaspirated CI (compressionignition) engine can easily make 15 bar of BMEP, and several turbocharged CI street engines routinely exceed 20.5 bar. It is helpful to remember that BMEP is a useful tool for comparing and evaluating similar types of engines.
For comparison purposes, let's look at what is commonly believed to be the very pinnacle of engine performance: Formula1 (Grand Prix).
An F1 engine is purposebuilt and essentially unrestricted. For 2006, the rules required a 90° V8 engine of 2.4 liters displacement (146.4 CID) with a maximum bore of 98mm (3.858) and a required bore spacing of 106.5 mm (4.193). The resulting stroke to achieve 2.4 liters is 39.75 mm (1.565) and is implemented with a 180° crankshaft. The typical rod length is approximately 4.016 (102 mm), for a Rod/Stroke ratio of about 2.57. These engines are typically a 4valveper cylinder layout with two overhead cams per bank, and pneumatic valvesprings. In addition to the few restrictions stated above, there are the following additional restrictions: (a) no beryllium compounds, (b) no MMC pistons, (c) no variablelength intake pipes, (d) one injector per cylinder, and (e) the requirement that one engine last for two race weekends.
At the end of the 2006 season, most of these F1 engines ran up to 20,000 RPM in a race, and made in the vicinity of 750 HP. One engine for which I have the figures made 755 BHP at an astonishing 19,250 RPM. At a peak power of 755 HP, the torque is 206 lbft and peakpower BMEP would be 212 psi. (14.63 bar). Peak torque of 214 lbft occurred at 17,000 RPM for a BMEP of 220 psi (15.18 bar). There can be no argument that 212 psi at 19,250 RPM is truly amazing.
However, let's look at some astounding domestic technology.
The NASCAR Cup race engine is a severelyrestricted powerplant, allegedly being derived from "production" components, although as of 2010, all 4 engines competing at that level (Chevy, Dodge, Ford, Totota) are purposebuilt race engines designed specifically to NASCAR's rule book.
By regulation, they use a castiron 90° V8 block and 90° steel crankshaft, with a maximum displacement of 358 CID (5.87 liters). A typical configuration has a 4.185" bore with a 3.25" stroke and a 6.20" conrod (R/S = 1.91). Cylinder heads are similarly purposedesigned and highlydeveloped, but limited to two valves per cylinder, specific valve angles, specific port floor heights, etc.. The valves are operated by a single, engineblockmounted, flattappet camshaft (that's right, still no rollers as of 2012) and a pushrod / rockerarm / coilspring valvetrain. It is further hobbled by the requirement for a single fourbarrel carburetor (until 2011) and now (2012 on), by a 4barrelcarburetorlike throttle body and individial runner EFI. Electronicallycontrolled ignition is allowed (as of 2012), and there are minimum weight requirements for the conrods and pistons.
How does it perform? In early 2010, the engines were producing in the neighborhood of 860 HP at 9000 RPM (and could produce more at 10,000 RPM, but engine RPM has been restricted by means of a rule limiting the final drive ratio at each venue).
Consider the fact that, to produce 860 HP at 9000 RPM, requires 501 lbft of torque, for a peakpower BMEP of nearly 211 PSI (14.55 bar). Peak torque (2010) was typically about 535 lbft at 7800 RPM, for a peak BMEP of over 225 psi (15.5 bar).
THAT is truly astonishing. Compare the F1 engine figures to the Cup engine figures for a better grip on just how clever these Cup engine guys are.
That being said, recent winners in the annual Engine Masters competition are achieving over 16.9 bar BMEP (145 psi) with normallyaspirated, petrolfueled, SI, 2valve pushrod engines, although the builders freely admit that, due to the very aggressive cam profiles, rocker ratios, gross valve lift numbers, and other compromises aimed at maximizing BMEP, these engines have relatively short life expectancies.
To appreciate the value of this comparison tool, suppose someone offers to sell you a 2.8 liter (171 cubic inch) Ford V6 which allegedly makes 230 HP at 5000 RPM, and is equipped with the standard OEM iron heads and an aftermarket intake manifold and camshaft. You could evaluate the reasonableness of this claim by calculating (a) that 230 HP at 5000 RPM requires 242 lbft of torque (230 x 5252 ÷ 5000), and (b) that 242 lbft. of torque from 171 cubic inches requires a BMEP of 213 PSI (150.8 x 242 ÷ 171).
You would then dismiss the claim as preposterous because you know that if a guy could do the magic required to make that kind of performance with the stock heads and intake design, he would be renowned as one of the preeminent engine gurus in the world. (You would later discover that the engine rating of "230" is actually "Blantonpower", not Horsepower.)
As a matter of fact, in order to get a BMEP value of 214 PSI from our aircraft V8, we had to use extremely well developed, highflowing, high velocity heads, a speciallydeveloped tuned intake and fuel injection system, very well developed rollercam profiles and valve train components, and a host of very specialized components which we designed and manufactured.
DERIVATION OF THE BMEP EQUATIONS The definition of BMEP (Brake Mean Effective Pressure), as previously stated at the top of this page, is: " the mean (average) pressure which, if imposed on the pistons uniformly from the top to the bottom of each power stroke, would produce the measured (brake) power output". AGAIN, NOTE that BMEP is purely theoretical and has nothing to do with actual cylinder pressures.
If we put the definition into mathematical form, we get:,
HP = BMEP x piston area x (stroke / 12) x RPM x powerpulsesperrevolution / 33000
Working through that equation in terms of a single cylinder engine, BMEP (in PSI) multiplied by piston area (square inches) gives the mean force applied to the piston during the power stroke. Multiplying that force by the stroke (inches divided by 12, which changes the units to feet) gives the net WORK (in footpounds) produced by the piston moving from TDC to BDC with the BMEP exerted on it throughout that motion. (Clearly this is not an attempt to represent the reality in the combustion chamber. As previously stated, BMEP is simply a convenient tool for comparing and evaluating engine performance.)
Next, power is defined as workperunit time. Therefore, multiplying the WORK (ftlbs) by the RPM, then multiplying by powerpulsesperrevolution (PPR) gives the net (brake) power (footpounds per minute in this example) produced by one cylinder. (In a singlecylinder engine, PPR is either 1 for a 2stroke engine or 1/2 for a 4stroke engine.
Since one HORSEPOWER is defined as 33,000 footpoundsofworkperminute, dividing the WORK (ftlbs) by 33,000 changes the units from footpoundsperminute to HP.
Since it is clear that piston area x stroke is the displacement of one cylinder (in cubic inches), then the equation can be simplified to:
HP = BMEP x (displacement / 12) x RPM x powerpulsesperrevolution / 33000
Horsepower is also defined as:
HP = Torque x RPM / 5252
Substituting that equation into the preceding one gives:
Torque x RPM / 5252 = BMEP x displacement / 12 x RPM x PPR / 33000
Reducing that equation gives:
BMEP = (Torque x 12 x 33,000 / 5252) / (Displacement x PPR)
Evaluating the constants, 12 x 33,000 / 5252 = 75.39985, which can safely be approximated by 75.4. Simplifying the equation again gives:
BMEP = (Torque x 75.4) / (Displacement x PPR)
It is also clear that because the equation includes PPR, it applies to engines with any number of cylinders by using the total displacement, total brake torque, and correct PPR.
Suppose, for example, that you measured 14.45 lbft of torque from a 125 cc (7.625 CID) singlecylinder 2stroke engine at 12,950 RPM, you would have 35.63 HP (285 HP per liter, quite impressive indeed). The BMEP would be:
BMEP = (14.45 x 75.4) / (7.625 x 1) = 142.9 psi (9.85 bar)
That BMEP (9.85 bar) is an impressive number for a pistonported 2stroke engine.
However, suppose someone claimed to be making that same torque from a single cylinder 4stroke 125 cc engine at 12,950 RPM. The power would be the same (35.63 HP, or 285 HP per liter). The power density would not necessarily set off alarms, (the 2008 2.4 liter F1 V8 engines approached 315 HP per liter), but the BMEP would cause that claim to be declared highly questionable:
BMEP = (14.45 x 75.4) / (7.625 x 1/2) = 285.8 psi (19.7 bar)
That BMEP (19.7 bar) is clearly absurd for a normallyaspirated engine. Professor Gordon Blair stated that exceeding 15 bar of BMEP in a N/A engine is virtually impossible, but that was a few years ago. NASCAR Cup engines are now approaching 15.6 bar
Clearly, the difference between 2 and 4stroke engines is simply a factor of 2, because of the fact that a 2stroke cylinder fires once per revoultion whereas a 4stroke engine fires only once per two revolutions. The equations can be simplified further by incorporating that PPR factor in the constant 75.4 and eliminating PPR from the equation, therefore making the constant for a 4stroke engine 2 x 75.4 = 150.8. That produces the equations shown at the top of this article, which use the full engine displacement and measured torque.
BMEP = 150.8 x TORQUE (lbft) / DISPLACEMENT (ci)
(Equation 8a, 4Stroke Engine)
BMEP = 75.4 x TORQUE (lbft) / DISPLACEMENT (ci)
(Equation 8b, 2Stroke Engine)

   Frits Overmars
Nombre de messages : 2285 Age : 71 Localisation : Raalte, Holland Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Dim 3 Juin 2012  0:18  
 Happy Birthday Jan! [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] 
   Toop
Nombre de messages : 3564 Age : 19 Localisation : Tours Date d'inscription : 02/01/2010
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Dim 3 Juin 2012  0:35  
 Joyeux Anniversaire, Monsieur !!! 
   fpayart
Nombre de messages : 1021 Age : 70 Localisation : LYON Date d'inscription : 11/01/2010
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Lun 4 Juin 2012  23:40  
 Happy birthday Jan. And congratulations for your numerous descendants. We wish you many more other happy birthdays. 
   Marc Admin
Nombre de messages : 27833 Age : 61 Localisation : Villiers sur Marne (94) Date d'inscription : 27/05/2008
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Lun 4 Juin 2012  23:42  
 
   rgdavid
Nombre de messages : 270 Localisation : ariege france Date d'inscription : 30/03/2011
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Mar 5 Juin 2012  0:13  
 happy birthday, cest pas que le 2 temps que tu est maitre a fabriqué 
   fpayart
Nombre de messages : 1021 Age : 70 Localisation : LYON Date d'inscription : 11/01/2010
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Mar 5 Juin 2012  0:47  
 @David: Your French is certainly better than my English but I think you should write him in English I think it will be easier for him Voici la traduction de ton texte avec GOOGLE: " cest pas que le 2 temps que tu est maitre a fabriqué" = this is not the time for you two is master has made Unbelievable isn't it! 
   Jan Thiel
Nombre de messages : 501 Age : 79 Localisation : Bangkok Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Mar 5 Juin 2012  4:26  
 Thanks for the birthday wishes! 
   Emmanuel Laurentz
Nombre de messages : 4315 Age : 60 Localisation : PACA Date d'inscription : 07/12/2009
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Mar 5 Juin 2012  10:38  
 
   noppie7
Nombre de messages : 1 Localisation : Nederland Date d'inscription : 08/01/2011
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Mar 5 Juin 2012  14:46  
 Wat forgotten in this discussion is the rpm's. It is far more difficult to obtain 15 Bar BMEP at 20.000 rpm than it is at 10.000. That is a lot more air!
After all BMEP and rpm's make the power.
Above certain rpm's two valvers get out of breath and four valvers take over to get enough air in the engine.
Also, that is why two strokers are more or less at their limit in the present design. There is simple not enough TA left
Never the less it is very impressive what they acomplish with that old design two valvers. 
   GtG001
Nombre de messages : 81 Age : 65 Localisation : Adelaide, Australia Date d'inscription : 03/06/2012
 Sujet: Happy Birthday Mer 6 Juin 2012  6:34  
  Frits Overmars a écrit:
 Happy Birthday Jan!
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] Happy Birthday Jan from one of your extended two stroke family  please know that I appreciate your generous contribution of knowledge and advise on this forum. Kind regards Allan. 
   Brian Callahan
Nombre de messages : 19 Localisation : San Diego, USA Date d'inscription : 14/05/2012
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Jeu 7 Juin 2012  1:02  
  Frits Overmars a écrit:
Maximum torque of the RSA125 was 29.5 Nm between 12,000 and 12,500 rpm, measured at the secundary gearbox shaft. That should give a BMEP of about 17 bar
Frits, I calculate 14.8 bar for 29.52 Nm and 125 cm³. What am I missing? 
   Frits Overmars
Nombre de messages : 2285 Age : 71 Localisation : Raalte, Holland Date d'inscription : 12/10/2010
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Jeu 7 Juin 2012  1:24  
 Reading glasses?  Frits Overmars a écrit:
 Transmission losses are in the region of 5% per transmission step. From the crankshaft to the primary gearbox shaft you loose 5% of the crankshaft power. In the gearbox you loose another 5% of the input.
 Frits Overmars a écrit:
 ....when calculating the mean effective pressure in the cylinder, by definition you must base the calculation on crankshaft power.
See what you missed? The conversion from gearbox shaft torque to crankshaft torque. The 'about 17 bar' I mentioned is a rounded figure. If you calculate it exactly, with 124,82 cc, it works out at a bit less than that. But it's still more than any naturally aspirated petrolburning fourstroke will deliver. 
   Brian Callahan
Nombre de messages : 19 Localisation : San Diego, USA Date d'inscription : 14/05/2012
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Jeu 7 Juin 2012  2:42  
 Ah, two transmission steps not one. Because one 5% loss would be 15.62 bar and two would make it 16.48 bar MEP if the dyno was braking the crankshaft instead of the transmission output shaft. OK, it makes sense now. Also, it's not quite 125 cm³ but actually 124.82. That brings it from 16.48 to 16.51 bar. OK, now you can round up to 17. 
   Mic
Nombre de messages : 62 Localisation : Denmark Date d'inscription : 12/02/2012
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked) Lun 11 Juin 2012  21:52  
  Brian Callahan a écrit:
 Also, it's not quite 125 cm³ but actually 124.82. That brings it from 16.48 to 16.51 bar. OK, now you can round up to 17.
If we really have to go into the small details it must be between 124,89 and 124,91 cm³ becuase the cylinder bore is between 15 and 20 microns over nominal size. So now you can round down back to 16;) 
   Jarno
Nombre de messages : 8661 Localisation : Imatra sur Seine Date d'inscription : 10/11/2009
    Contenu sponsorisé
 Sujet: Re: [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked)  
 
    [GP125] All that you wanted to know on Aprilia RSA 125, and more, by Mr Jan Thiel and Mr Frits Overmars (PART 1) (Locked)  

Sujets similaires  

 Permission de ce forum:  Vous ne pouvez pas répondre aux sujets dans ce forum
 
 
 