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 [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA

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AuteurMessage
Mic



Nombre de messages: 9
Localisation: Denmark
Date d'inscription: 12/02/2012

MessageSujet: 24/7 inlet   Lun 20 Fév 2012 - 19:06

I like the idea about two rotary valves stacked.

But instead of rotating they could just oscillate back and forward controlled by a couple of fast and precise step/servo motors like the x and y mirror on an industrial engraving laser. The motors used to move the beam is very fast and accurate.

Then you would have fully programmable intel duration controlled by a combined ECU also controlling, ignition, exhaust valve, power jet and step motor for variable intake lenght.

Will start on a simple sketch of the layout.
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Frits Overmars



Nombre de messages: 631
Age: 63
Localisation: Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription: 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Lun 20 Fév 2012 - 22:25

Mic a écrit:
I like the idea about two rotary valves stacked. But instead of rotating they could just oscillate back and forward controlled by a couple of fast and precise step/servo motors like the x and y mirror on an industrial engraving laser. The motors used to move the beam is very fast and accurate. Then you would have fully programmable intel duration controlled by a combined ECU also controlling, ignition, exhaust valve, power jet and step motor for variable intake lenght. Will start on a simple sketch of the layout.
And while you are at it, maybe you can add a couple of camshafts, Mic .

@Hakkelaar: your proposal of shifting the phase of the disk by shifting the belt tensioners was used by Porsche over 20 years ago; it was their first version of a variable inlet camshaft drive.
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GrahamB



Nombre de messages: 642
Age: 50
Localisation: Lyon
Date d'inscription: 19/08/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Lun 20 Fév 2012 - 22:36

Mic a écrit:

Will start on a simple sketch of the layout.


Maybe start with a calculation of the amount of torque required to move them back & forth at the required rate, and the power your stepper motor would need...
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rgdavid



Nombre de messages: 185
Localisation: ariege france
Date d'inscription: 30/03/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Lun 20 Fév 2012 - 22:46


i would of thought 2 X valve covers that could be moved separtely,

but how to overcome the force needed to move the covers quickly against the resistance of oilseals or o-rings (or what ever to seal against air leaks)
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Mic



Nombre de messages: 9
Localisation: Denmark
Date d'inscription: 12/02/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Mar 21 Fév 2012 - 7:20

After some more thinking one of the rotary discs could be removed.

One disc controlled by servo motor would be enough. It would still provide a good flow until fully opened and upon fully opened the flow is perfect.

Of course some calculations on torque requirements is needed. But I'm quite sure the motor speed is available based on the current design of galvano mirrors on lasers. But how much torque is need to overcome the friction caused by the suction and pressure on the disc is a good question.
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Mic



Nombre de messages: 9
Localisation: Denmark
Date d'inscription: 12/02/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Mar 21 Fév 2012 - 7:40

@Frits -> Perhaps skip the variable intake length in the first prototype to simplify the design

A simple idea how to measure the torque need to move the rotary disc. Don't know if it's good or bad.

Take a tandem twin, remove ignition on one cylinder and make a dyno run. Then remove the disc on the cylinder not firing and make a new run. Then the difference in the runs would be an indicator of the torque needed.
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Frits Overmars



Nombre de messages: 631
Age: 63
Localisation: Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription: 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Mar 21 Fév 2012 - 9:38

Mic a écrit:
A simple idea how to measure the torque need to move the rotary disc.... Take a tandem twin, remove ignition on one cylinder and make a dyno run. Then remove the disc on the cylinder not firing and make a new run. Then the difference in the runs would be an indicator of the torque needed.
The gas dynamics in the non-firing cylinder are quite different from those in the firing cylinder, as will be the crankcase pressure variation. So this is not a good way to measure the disc friction.
But measuring the friction is pointless anyway, because the inertia torque is much larger.
Imagine a rider shifting down for a corner: dataloggers on works Aprilias have registered spikes of 17.500 rpm. Just think of what this means for the disc drive torque...

Back to basics: the shape of the power curve is determined by the exhaust resonance and varying the total opening angle of a rotary inlet disc is rather useless. It is however possible to keep the total angle constant and rotate the disc position on the crankshaft a little: open and close it early in the lower part of the power band and shift to late at higher revs. This has already been practiced on some kart engines, with a simple coarse-pitch drive between the crankshaft splines and the disc hub.
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Mic



Nombre de messages: 9
Localisation: Denmark
Date d'inscription: 12/02/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Mar 21 Fév 2012 - 9:48

Is it needed to run the disc for overreving under braking?

The motor isn't pulling anyway so why not just leave the inlet constant open until the engine speed drops down to 0.8*peak power rpm.

For RSA this would mean that the disc is only needed until 10.400 rpm. Above that constant open.
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Frits Overmars



Nombre de messages: 631
Age: 63
Localisation: Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription: 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Mar 21 Fév 2012 - 10:04

Mic a écrit:
....For RSA this would mean that the disc is only needed until 10.400 rpm. Above that constant open.
You'll get there eventually, Mic Wink. A good 125 cc rider can always keep the revs above 10.500 rpm, so you do not need any power below that rpm. And if you don't need power, why would you bother with a rotary disc? Use a simple reed valve and swing it out of the way as soon as the engine runs in the power band: that is the philosophy behind my 24/7-system.

In my previous post I wrote something about the inertia forces on the disk during gearshifting. What you propose, takes this to the next level: synchronizing a stationary disk with a crankshaft running at 10.000 rpm within one revolution may well require 50 HP....
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Mic



Nombre de messages: 9
Localisation: Denmark
Date d'inscription: 12/02/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Mar 21 Fév 2012 - 10:19

The reason for I considered the rotary valve solution for you 24/7 system was because of the perfect flow.

You could have any hole shape and with a perfect smooth inlet.
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Frits Overmars



Nombre de messages: 631
Age: 63
Localisation: Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription: 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Mar 21 Fév 2012 - 10:29

Mic a écrit:
The reason for I considered the rotary valve solution for you 24/7 system was because of the perfect flow. You could have any hole shape and with a perfect smooth inlet.
I appreciate the thought, Mic. But a lateral rotary valve messes up the inflow to the transfer ducts at one side, and a rear disc requires a complicated drive system (setting up the double conical drive of the RSA125 is a nightmare). A smooth rectangular hole (with the starting-reed swung out of the way) flows fine. And remember the abbreviation KISS : Keep It Simple, Sport Wink.
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Mic



Nombre de messages: 9
Localisation: Denmark
Date d'inscription: 12/02/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Mar 21 Fév 2012 - 10:41

I reckon that my idea is more complicated than a simple reed based solution.

Just tried to come with a different solution Very Happy

The "swing" motor for the reedcase would also have to react very fast in order not to disturb the flow with a half open reedcase during change from reed to 24/7. If it takes to long the flow rate would drop along with the power during the change over.
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Frits Overmars



Nombre de messages: 631
Age: 63
Localisation: Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription: 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Mar 21 Fév 2012 - 11:48

Mic a écrit:
The "swing" motor for the reedcase would also have to react very fast in order not to disturb the flow with a half open reedcase during change from reed to 24/7. If it takes to long the flow rate would drop along with the power during the change over.
No sweat, Mic. The reed can take its time swinging out of the way; a half-open reed has less flow resistance than a 'normal' reed.
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Hakkelaar



Nombre de messages: 7
Localisation: The Netherlands
Date d'inscription: 03/02/2011

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Mar 21 Fév 2012 - 23:20

Citation:
@Hakkelaar: your proposal of shifting the phase of the disk by shifting the belt tensioners was used by Porsche over 20 years ago; it was their first version of a variable inlet camshaft drive.


Damn those Germans... scratch Hahahahaha!

The idea of shifting the fase like that can probably be found in lots of books about solutions for mechanical drives, etc. Now I'm just curious, has anyone ever tried to construct a system with variable rotary disc timing? I guess that it would only be an advantage when accelerating out of a corner while the revs are below the powerband. A little slip of the clutch would probably achieve the same ;-)

The idea of the 24/7 intake really intrigues me. I was wondering... Would it be of an advantage to use a relatively long and small diameter intake tract between the reed valve and the crank case? The small diameter and long tract would raise the speed and therefore the inertia of the intake charge, making it harder for the flow to reverse.

Maybe I'm just acting like a parrot and repeating things that are already mentioned. It's hard to remember all the 37 pages of this thread...

Greetz,

Jacob
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Frits Overmars



Nombre de messages: 631
Age: 63
Localisation: Raalte, Holland
Date d'inscription: 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Mar 21 Fév 2012 - 23:38

Hakkelaar a écrit:
... has anyone ever tried to construct a system with variable rotary disc timing? I guess that it would only be an advantage when accelerating out of a corner while the revs are below the powerband. A little slip of the clutch would probably achieve the same
Variable disk valve phasing has been tried in the past in some kart engines, as I mentioned above. These were direct drive, so slipping the clutch was no option.
Citation:
The idea of the 24/7 intake really intrigues me. I was wondering... Would it be of an advantage to use a relatively long and small diameter intake tract between the reed valve and the crank case? The small diameter and long tract would raise the speed and therefore the inertia of the intake charge, making it harder for the flow to reverse.
You are on the right trail, Jacob. The combination of crankcase volume, inlet tract length and diameter should be chosen so that the direction of inlet flow never reverses when the engine is running in the power band.
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XpTpSMTT



Nombre de messages: 14
Localisation: Hellas
Date d'inscription: 08/02/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Jeu 23 Fév 2012 - 9:15

Hakkelaar a écrit:
.... Now I'm just curious, has anyone ever tried to construct a system with variable rotary disc timing? I guess that it would only be an advantage when accelerating out of a corner while the revs are below the powerband. A little slip of the clutch would probably achieve the same ;-)...


Greetz,

Jacob

I was also curious,seems that not many efforts have been utilized after all or the results
have not been known.
It all comes down to what we need from an engine.
Ill toss the reed valve out of my KTM 125 exc and try to keep the revs above 10500,
on hard rock or muddy terrain...



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Jan Thiel



Nombre de messages: 72
Age: 71
Localisation: Bangkok
Date d'inscription: 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Jeu 23 Fév 2012 - 9:37

And when I retarded inlet closure 2 or 3 degrees my engine lost a lot of power at 10.500 revs!
This might work on an aircraft engine with constant rpm.
Or with a flow diode!
A small diameter and long trackt would destroy power.
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XpTpSMTT



Nombre de messages: 14
Localisation: Hellas
Date d'inscription: 08/02/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Jeu 23 Fév 2012 - 9:57

Jan Thiel a écrit:
And when I retarded inlet closure 2 or 3 degrees my engine lost a lot of power at 10.500 revs!
This might work on an aircraft engine with constant rpm.
Or with a flow diode!
A small diameter and long trackt would destroy power.


Where did you gain with retarded inlet closure 2 or 3 degrees?
But we love motorcycles and we have to ride them out of corners and open the throtle asap
with the little tyre contact patch we have available,we want power AND progressively ...
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Jan Thiel



Nombre de messages: 72
Age: 71
Localisation: Bangkok
Date d'inscription: 12/10/2010

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Jeu 23 Fév 2012 - 9:59

I gained above 12500 rpm
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XpTpSMTT



Nombre de messages: 14
Localisation: Hellas
Date d'inscription: 08/02/2012

MessageSujet: Re: [GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA   Jeu 23 Fév 2012 - 10:05

Jan Thiel a écrit:
I gained above 12500 rpm

So if you could keep the timing at +3 degrees @ 10500
and retard at 12500 you could have the best of both worlds?
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[GP125] Caractéristiques Aprilia RSA

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